为什么殖民主义(仍旧)在被浪漫化? Farish Ahmad-Noor: Why is colonialism (still) romanticized?

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演员: Farish Ahmad-Noor


台词
I promise you that I will not sing. I will spare you that, at least.
我保证我不会在台上唱歌, 至少在这一点上大家可以放心。
But I am a historian
但我是一位有哲学背景的
with a background in philosophy,
历史学家,
and my main area of research is basically the history of Southeast Asia,
我的主要研究领域是东南亚历史,
with a focus on 19th-century colonial Southeast Asia.
侧重于 19 世纪的东南亚殖民史。
And over the last few years,
在过去的几年里,
what I've been doing is really tracing the history of certain ideas
我一直在追溯某些思想的历史,
that shape our viewpoint,
这些想法塑造了我们的视角,
the way we in Asia, in Southeast Asia,
并影响了我们亚洲人、东南亚人
look at ourselves and understand ourselves.
看待自己、理解自己的方式。
Now, there's one thing that I cannot explain
作为一名历史学家,
as a historian,
有一件事我一直无法解释,
and this has been puzzling me for a long time,
并且这件事困扰了我很久:
and this is how and why certain ideas, certain viewpoints
为什么某些特定的想法和观点
do not seem to ever go away.
似乎永远无法消失。
And I don't know why.
我不明白为什么。
And in particular,
我特别感兴趣的是,
I'm interested to understand why some people -- not all, by no means --
为什么某些人—— 不是所有人,无意冒犯——
but some people in postcolonial Asia
某些人身处后殖民时代的亚洲,
still hold on to a somewhat romanticized view of the colonial past,
却仍旧对殖民历史持有 较为浪漫化的看法,
see it through kind of rose-tinted lenses
他们透过玫瑰色的眼镜,
as perhaps a time that was benevolent or nice or pleasant,
觉得那段历史或许 是仁慈、美好或愉快的,
even though historians know the realities of the violence
即便历史学家深知 整段殖民历史的
and the oppression
暴力、压迫
and the darker side of that entire colonial experience.
与黑暗面的真面目。
So let's imagine that I build a time machine for myself.
假设我为自己造了一台时光机器。
(Makes beeping noises)
(模仿蜂鸣声)
I build a time machine,
我造了一台时光机,
I send myself back to the 1860s,
把自己送回到 19 世纪 60 年代,
a hundred years before I was born.
那是我出生前的 100 年。
Oh dear, I've just dated myself.
糟糕,我刚刚暴露了年龄。
OK, I go back a hundred years before I was born.
好,让我们回到 我出生的 100 年前。
Now, if I were to find myself in the context of colonial Southeast Asia
如果我发现我自己生活在
in the 19th century,
19 世纪殖民时代的东南亚,
I would not be a professor.
我绝对无法成为一名教授。
Historians know this.
历史学家很清楚这一点。
And yet, despite that,
尽管如此,
there's still some quarters that somehow want to hold on to this idea
仍然有一些人想要坚信
that that past was not as murky,
殖民的历史没有那么阴暗,
that there was a romanticized side to it.
仍有浪漫的一面。
Now, here is where I, as a historian,
作为一名历史学家,
I encounter the limits of history,
我正是在这里遭遇了历史的瓶颈,
because I can trace ideas.
因为我可以追溯思想,
I can find out the origins of certain clichés, certain stereotypes.
我可以找出某些陈词滥调、 某些刻板印象的起源,
I can tell you who came up with it, where and when and in which book.
我可以告诉你这是谁想出来的, 是何时何地在哪本书中提出的。
But there's one thing I cannot do:
但有一件事我做不到:
I cannot get into the internal, subjective mental universe of someone
我无法进入一个人内在的 主观精神世界
and change their mind.
并改变他的想法。
And I think this is where and why, over the last few years,
这也是为什么在过去的几年里,
I'm increasingly drawn to things like psychology
我越发被心理学
and cognitive behavioral therapy;
和认知行为疗法等所吸引;
because in these fields, scholars look at the persistence of ideas.
因为在这些领域, 学者可以研究思想的顽固性。
Why do some people have certain prejudices?
为什么有些人会持有某些偏见、
Why are there certain biases, certain phobias?
成见,甚至某些恐惧症呢?
We live, unfortunately, sadly, in a world where, still, misogyny persists,
很不幸,也很可悲的是, 我们都生活在一个厌女症、
racism persists, all kinds of phobias.
种族歧视与各种恐惧症 依旧存续的世界。
Islamophobia, for instance, is now a term.
比如伊斯兰恐惧症 现在甚至成为了一个新名词。
And why do these ideas persist?
为什么这些想法能持久存在呢?
Many scholars agree that it's partly because, when looking at the world,
很多学者认为,部分原因是因为 当我们看这个世界时,
we fall back, we fall back, we fall back
我们在朝一个有限的区域
on a finite pool,
不停地撤退、撤退、撤退,
a small pool of basic ideas that don't get challenged.
这个区域中都是一些 不会被挑战的基本想法。
Look at how we, particularly us in Southeast Asia,
来看看我们, 特别是在东南亚的人们,
represent ourselves to ourselves and to the world.
是如何向我们自己和世界 展现自己的。
Look at how often,
看看我们在讨论到自己,
when we talk about ourselves, my viewpoint, my identity, our identity,
我的观点、我的身份、我们的身份时,
invariably, we fall back, we fall back, we fall back, we fall back
我们往往都会倒退、倒退、倒退,
on the same set of ideas,
退回同一套想法上,
all of which have histories of their own.
这些想法都有其自身的历史根源。
Very simple example:
非常简单的一个例子:
we live in Southeast Asia,
我们生活在东南亚,
which is very popular with tourists from all over the world.
一个全世界的游客 都心驰神往的地方。
And I don't think that's a bad thing, by the way.
顺便一提,我并不觉得这是一件坏事。
I think it's good that tourists come to Southeast Asia,
我认为让游客们 来到东南亚是一件好事,
because it's part and parcel of broadening your worldview
因为这能够拓宽你的世界观、
and meeting cultures, etc, etc.
促进不同文化的交流,等等。
But look at how we represent ourselves
可是看看我们在旅游宣传和广告里
through the tourist campaigns, the tourist ads that we produce.
是如何表现自己的。
There will be the obligatory coconut tree, banana tree, orangutan.
千篇一律的椰子树、香蕉树和猩猩。
(Laughter)
(笑声)
And the orangutan doesn't even get paid.
猩猩甚至都没拿到片酬。
(Laughter)
(笑声)
Look at how we represent ourselves. Look at how we represent nature.
看看我们是怎么表现自己、 怎么表现大自然的。
Look at how we represent the countryside.
看看我们是怎么表现乡村的。
Look at how we represent agricultural life.
看看我们是怎么表现农业生活的。
Watch our sitcoms.
看看我们的情景喜剧,
Watch our dramas. Watch our movies.
看看我们的电视剧, 看看我们的电影。
It's very common, particularly in Southeast Asia,
一个在东南亚尤其普遍的现象是,
when you watch these sitcoms,
在这些情景喜剧里面,
if there's someone from the countryside, invariably, they're ugly,
如果有人来自乡村, 那人无一例外地长得很丑,
they're funny, they're silly,
很搞笑、很憨,
they're without knowledge.
并且没有文化。
It's as if the countryside has nothing to offer.
这就好像乡村一无是处一样。
Our view of nature,
我们对于自然的观点,
despite all our talk,
尽管我们一直在谈论
despite all our talk about Asian philosophy, Asian values,
亚洲人的哲学、亚洲人的价值观,
despite all our talk about how we have an organic relationship to nature,
尽管我们一直在说, 我们与大自然保持着原生态关系,
how do we actually treat nature in Southeast Asia today?
但事实上,我们如今 是怎样对待东南亚的自然环境的?
We regard nature as something to be defeated and exploited.
我们把大自然视为 应当被打败与剥削的对象。
And that's the reality.
这就是现实。
So the way in which we live in our part of the world,
所以在我们居住的地方, 在后殖民时代的东南亚,
postcolonial Southeast Asia,
我们的生活方式
in so many ways, for me,
对我来说,在很多方面
bears residual traces to ideas, tropes,
仍旧残留着某些 具有历史渊源的
clichés, stereotypes
想法、套路、陈词滥调和
that have a history.
刻板印象的痕迹。
This idea of the countryside as a place to be exploited,
诸如“乡村是有待开发的”、
the idea of countryfolk as being without knowledge --
“乡下人是没有文化的”这些想法,
these are ideas that historians like me can go back,
都是像我这样的历史学家可以回溯的,
we can trace how these stereotypes emerged.
我们可以追溯 这些刻板印象是如何出现的。
And they emerged at a time
而在它们所出现的时间点,
when Southeast Asia
东南亚
was being governed according to the logic of colonial capitalism.
正处于殖民资本主义的统治之下。
And in so many ways,
在很多方面,
we've taken these ideas with us.
我们都将这些思想传承了下来。
They're part of us now.
它们已成为了我们的一部分。
But we are not critical
但我们并没有以批判性的眼光
in interrogating ourselves and asking ourselves,
去诘问我们自己,
how did I have this view of the world?
我的世界观从何而来?
How did I come to have this view of nature?
我的自然观从何而来?
How did I come to have this view of the countryside?
我对乡村的观念从何而来?
How do I have this idea of Asia as exotic?
我什么我会觉得亚洲有异域风情?
And we, Southeast Asians in particular,
而且我们,尤其是我们东南亚人,
love to self-exoticize ourselves.
很热衷于标榜自己的“异国情调”。
We've turned Southeast Asian identity into a kind of cosplay
我们已经将东南亚人的身份 变成了一种角色扮演(cosplay),
where you can literally go to the supermarket, go to the mall
你甚至可以在超市和商城里
and buy your do-it-yourself exotic Southeast Asian costume kit.
买到可以自制东南亚 异域服饰的材料套装。
And we parade this identity,
而我们标榜这种身份,
not asking ourselves how and when
却不去扪心自问
did this particular image of ourselves emerge.
这种对自己的特定印象 是何时、怎样产生的。
They all have a history, too.
它们也都有自己的历史背景。
And that's why, increasingly,
这也就是为什么,
as a historian, I find that as I encounter the limits of history,
作为一个历史学家, 当我发现自己碰到历史的局限时,
I see that I can't work alone anymore.
我愈发地认为 自己不能再独自工作了。
I can't work alone anymore,
我不能再独自工作了,
because there's absolutely no point in me doing my archival work,
因为对我来说,一个人继续 进行档案研究实在没有任何意义,
there's no point in me seeking the roots of these ideas,
寻找这些想法的根源、
tracing the genesis of ideas
追溯它们的成因,
and then putting it in some journal
然后发表在某个期刊上,
to be read by maybe three other historians.
供大概另外三个历史学家阅读——
There's absolutely no point.
这实在是没有任何意义。
The reason why I think this is important is because our region, Southeast Asia,
我之所以认为这很重要, 是因为我相信,
will, I believe, in the years to come,
我们的东南亚地区 在未来的岁月之中,
go through enormous changes, unprecedented changes in our history,
将会经历翻天覆地、 前所未有的剧变,
partly because of globalization,
部分原因是因为全球化、
world politics, geopolitical contestations,
世界政治、 地缘政治的争端、
the impact of technology,
科学技术的冲击、
the Fourth Industrial Revolution ...
第四次工业革命……
Our world as we know it is going to change.
我们所熟知的世界 正要发生变化。
But for us to adapt to this change,
但对我们来说, 想要适应这种变化,
for us to be ready for that change,
并为这种变化做好准备,
we need to think out of the box,
我们就需要打破陈规,
and we can't fall back, we can't fall back, we can't fall back
不能再后退、再倒退,
on the same set of clichéd, tired, staid old stereotypes.
再退回过去那套陈腐、 乏味、守旧的刻板印象中去。
We need to think out,
我们需要不落窠臼地思考,
and that's why historians, we can't work alone now.
这也是为什么我们历史学家 现在不能再独自工作了。
I, I need to engage with people in psychology,
我需要与心理学家
people in behavioral therapy.
和行为疗法的专家合作。
I need to engage with sociologists, anthropologists, political economists.
我需要与社会学家、 人类学家、政治经济学家合作。
I need above all to engage with people in the arts
最重要的是,我需要与艺术家
and the media,
还有媒体合作,
because it's there, in that forum,
因为正是在这个
outside the confines of the university,
跳出大学局限的论坛,
that these debates really need to take place.
才能真正进行这些争论。
And they need to take place now,
我们现在就应该进行这些辩论,
because we need to understand that the way things are today
因为我们需要明白, 当今世界的现状
are not determined by some fixed,
并不是由某些固定的历史轨迹
iron historical railway track,
而决定的,
but rather there are many other histories,
而是由许多其他历史、
many other ideas that were forgotten, marginalized, erased along the line.
许多被我们遗忘的、边缘化的、 一路抹除的想法而决定的。
Historians like me, our job is to uncover all this, discover all this,
像我一样的历史学家的职责 就是挖掘这一切、发现这一切,
but we need to engage this, we need to engage with society as a whole.
但我们还需要传达这一切, 我们需要参与到整个社会当中。
So to go back to that time machine example I gave earlier.
那么回到我先前举的 时间机器的例子。
Let's say this is a 19th-century colonial subject then,
假设这是一个 19 世纪的殖民地,
and a person's wondering,
有一个人在想,
"Will empire ever come to an end?
“ 帝国统治到底会不会结束?
Will there be an end to all this?
这一切会有结束的一天吗?
Will we one day be free?"
我们有朝一日能获得自由吗?”
So the person invents a time machine --
于是这个人发明了一台时光机——
(Makes beeping noises)
(蜂鸣声)
goes into the future
前往了未来,
and arrives here in postcolonial Southeast Asia today.
并且抵达了今天, 后殖民时代的东南亚。
And the person looks around,
这个人环顾四周
and the person will see,
就会看到,
well yes, indeed,
确实,
the imperial flags are gone,
帝国的旗子不见了,
the imperial gunboats are gone, the colonial armies are gone.
他们的巡逻舰不见了, 殖民者的军队也不见了。
There are new flags, new nation-states.
他看到了新的国旗、新的国家,
There is independence after all.
他们最终还是迎来了独立。
But has there been?
但这是真的独立吗?
The person then watches the tourist ads
然后这个人看到了旅游广告,
and sees again the banana tree, the coconut tree and the orangutan.
再次看见了香蕉树、椰子树和猩猩。
The person watches on TV
这个人看电视,
and watches how images of an exotic Southeast Asia
看到了东南亚人如何不厌其烦地
are being reproduced again and again by Southeast Asians.
不断再现东南亚异域风情的景象。
And the person might then come to the conclusion that, well,
这个人可能会得出这样的结论:
notwithstanding the fact that
虽说从事实上来看,
colonialism is over,
殖民时代已经结束,
we are still in so, so many ways
但我们在很多、很多方面
living in the long shadow of the 19th century.
仍旧生活在 19 世纪 漫长的阴影之中。
And this, I think, has become my personal mission.
我认为这已经成为了 我个人的使命。
The reason why I think history is so important
我之所以认为历史如此重要、
and the reason why I think it's so important for history
非常有必要
to go beyond history,
让历史超越历史,
because need to reignite this debate about who and what we are,
是因为需要重新点燃 我们是谁、我们是什么的讨论,
all of us.
所有人都需要。
We talk about, "No, I have my viewpoint, you have your viewpoint."
我们说着,“不,我有我自己的观点, 你也有你自己的观点。”
Well, that's partly true.
这话也对,也不对。
Our viewpoints are never entirely our own individually.
我们的观点永远不会是 完全只属于我们个人的。
We're all social beings. We're historical beings.
我们都是社会的存在, 是历史的存在。
You, me, all of us,
你、我、所有人,
we carry history in us.
我们身上都承载着历史。
It's in the language we use. It's in the fiction we write.
历史流淌在我们使用的语言里、 我们撰写的小说里、
It's in the movies we choose to watch.
我们选择观赏的电影里。
It's in the images that we conjure when we think of who and what we are.
当我们思考自己是谁、是什么时, 历史也存在于脑海浮现的画面之中。
We are historical beings.
我们是历史的存在。
We carry history with us,
我们身上承载着历史,
and history carries us along.
历史也承载着我们。
But while we are determined by history,
虽说我们是被历史所决定的,
it is my personal belief
但我个人相信,
that we need not be trapped by history,
我们不必被历史所困,
and we need not be the victims of history.
也不必成为历史的牺牲品。
Thank you.
谢谢大家。
(Applause)
(掌声)