“非种族主义者” 和 “反种族主义者" 的区别 Ibram X. Kendi: The difference between being "not racist" and antiracist

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演员: Ibram X. Kendi


台词
Cloe Shasha: So welcome, Ibram,
科洛·莎莎: 欢迎,伊布拉姆,
and thank you so much for joining us.
谢谢你加入我们。
Ibram X. Kendi: Well, thank you, Cloe,
伊布拉姆·肯迪: 谢谢,科洛,
and Whitney,
还有惠特妮,
and thank you everyone for joining this conversation.
谢谢大家加入这次讨论。
And so, a few weeks ago,
几周前,
on the same day we learned about the brutal murder of George Floyd,
我们得知乔治·弗洛伊德 被谋杀的同一天,
we also learned that a white woman in Central Park
我们也听说中央公园里, 一位白人女性
who chose not to leash her dog
遛狗的时候没有拴绳,
and was told by a black man nearby that she needed to leash her dog,
附近的一位黑人告诉她, 她应该牵着她的狗,
instead decided to threaten this black male,
而她选择威胁这位黑人男性,
instead decided to call the police
并且报了警,
and claim that her life was being threatened.
声称她的生命受到了威胁。
And of course, when we learned about that through a video,
当我们通过一个视频 了解到这件事后,
many Americans were outraged,
许多美国人感到十分愤慨,
and this woman, Amy Cooper,
这位白人女性, 艾米·库珀,
ended up going on national TV
就像无数刚刚表现出 种族歧视行为的美国人一样,
and saying,
最终在全国电视上
like countless other Americans have said right after they engaged in a racist act,
辩解道,
"I am not racist."
“我不是种族主义者。”
And I say countless Americans,
我所谓的“无数的美国人”,
because when you really think about the history of Americans
因为当你认真去想美国人
expressing racist ideas,
表达种族主义观点、
supporting racist policies,
支持种族主义政策的历史,
you're really talking about a history of people
你指的实际上就是
who have claimed they're not racist,
声称自己不是 种族主义者的一群人,
because everyone claims that they're not racist,
因为每个人都说 自己不是种族主义者。
whether we're talking about the Amy Coopers of the world,
无论我们说的是 全世界的艾米·库珀们,
whether we're talking about Donald Trump,
还是特朗普——
who, right after he said that majority-black Baltimore
当他说出以黑人人口 为主的巴尔的摩市
is a rat and rodent-infested mess that no human being would want to live in,
是老鼠和啮齿动物出没的 烂摊子,没人想住在那儿,
and he was challenged as being racist,
然后被指控是种族主义者,
he said, "Actually, I'm the least racist person anywhere in the world."
他辩解道,“我可是世界上 最不种族歧视的人。”
And so really the heartbeat of racism itself
种族主义的核心
has always been denial,
始终都是否认,
and the sound of that heartbeat
而这种核心下的态度
has always been, "I'm not racist."
永远都是,“我不是种族主义者。”
And so what I'm trying to do with my work
所以我作品的目的就是
is to really get Americans to eliminate the concept of "not racist"
让美国人把 “非种族主义者”这个概念
from their vocabulary,
从他们的字典里抹掉,
and realize we're either being racist
并且意识到我们 如果不是种族主义者,
or anti-racist.
就是反种族主义者。
We're either expressing ideas that suggest certain racial groups
我们总是暗示某些人种
are better or worse than others,
比其他更好或更差,
superior or inferior than others.
更优越或更下等,
We're either being racist,
我们如果不是种族歧视者,
or we're being anti-racist.
就是反种族歧视者。
We're expressing notions that the racial groups are equals,
我们表达所有人种 都是平等的观念,
despite any cultural or even ethnic differences.
即使他们有文化 甚至民族上的差异。
We're either supporting policies that are leading
我们如果不是在支持 导致种族不平等
to racial inequities and injustice,
和不公正的政策,
like we saw in Louisville, where Breonna Taylor was murdered,
像布伦娜·泰勒在 路易斯维尔被谋杀一样,
or we're supporting policies and pushing policies
我们就是在支持和争取
that are leading to justice and equity for all.
促进正义和平等的政策。
And so I think we should be very clear
我想我们应该非常清楚,
about whether we're expressing racist ideas,
我们到底是不是在 表达种族主义观点,
about whether we're supporting racist policies,
是不是在支持种族主义政策,
and admit when we are,
如果我们是,我们要承认,
because to be anti-racist
因为要成为反种族主义者,
is to admit when we expressed a racist idea,
我们首先要承认自己 在表达种族主义观点,
is to say, "You know what?
要说,“你知道吗?
When I was doing that in Central Park,
我在中央公园所做的事,
I was indeed being racist.
确实是种族歧视。
But I'm going to change.
但我会改正。
I'm going to strive to be anti-racist."
我要努力成为反种族主义者。”
And to be racist
种族歧视
is to constantly deny
就是在不停地否认
the racial inequities that pervade American society,
遍及美国社会的 种族不平等,
to constantly deny the racist ideas that pervade American minds.
否认在美国人心中普遍流行的 种族主义观点。
And so I want to built a just and equitable society,
我想建立一个 正义、平等的社会,
and the only way we're going to even begin that process
开始这个过程必要的第一步,
is if we admit our racism
就是承认我们持有 种族主义观点,
and start building an anti-racist world.
开始创建一个 反种族主义的社会。
Thank you.
谢谢。
CS: Thank you so much for that.
科洛·莎莎: 太感谢你了。
You know, your book, "How to Be an Antiracist,"
鉴于当下的形势, 你的书《如何成为反种族主义者》
has become a bestseller in light of what's been happening,
已经成为了畅销书,
and you've been speaking a bit
你也讲到了一些
to the ways in which anti-racism and racism
关于种族主义和反种族主义
are the only two polar opposite ways to hold a view on racism.
是仅有的两种相反的 对待种族主义的方式。
I'm curious if you could talk a little bit more
我很好奇, 能不能为我们介绍一下
about what the basic tenets of anti-racism are,
反种族主义有哪些基本信条,
for people who aren't as familiar with it in terms of how they can be anti-racist.
让不熟悉的人们 了解如何成为反种族歧视者?
IXK: Sure. And so I mentioned in my talk
伊布拉姆: 好的。我刚才提到了,
that the heartbeat of racism is denial,
种族主义的核心是否认,
and really the heartbeat of anti-racism is confession,
那么反种族主义的 核心就是承认,
is the recognition
是认识到
that to grow up in this society
要在这个社会上成长,
is to literally at some point in our lives
就是在人生的某个阶段
probably internalize ideas that are racist,
认同并接受种族歧视的观点,
ideas that suggest certain racial groups are better or worse than others,
以及那些认为一些人种比 其他更好或更差的观点,
and because we believe in racial hierarchy,
因为我们相信 种族的等级制度,
because Americans have been systematically taught
因为美国人已经 被系统地教育
that black people are more dangerous,
黑人更危险,
that black people are more criminal-like,
黑人更像罪犯,
when we live in a society where black people
我们生活在一个 黑人人口占据
are 40 percent of the national incarcerated population,
监狱囚禁人口 百分之四十的国家,
that's going to seem normal to people.
这就会让人们习以为常。
When we live in a society
当我们生活在一个
in a city like Minneapolis
像明尼阿波利斯 一样的城市,
where black people are 20 percent of the population
黑人人口占百分之二十,
but more than 60 percent of the people being subjected to police shootings,
但超过百分之六十的人 遭受过警察的枪击,
it's going to seem normal.
这就看起来很正常。
And so to be anti-racist
所以要成为反种族主义者,
is to believe that there's nothing wrong
就要相信黑人和 任何其他的人种
or inferior about black people or any other racial group.
没有任何错, 也不比任何人低等。
There's nothing dangerous
黑人和其他人种
about black people or any other racial group.
并不危险。
And so when we see these racial disparities all around us,
当我们看见身边的 这些种族分裂现象,
we see them as abnormal,
我们应该觉得很反常,
and then we start to figure out, OK, what policies are behind
然后我们会开始 想去弄清楚,
so many black people being killed by police?
是什么政策让那么多 黑人被警察杀害?
What policies are behind so many Latinx people
是什么政策让那么多 拉丁美裔人
being disproportionately infected with COVID?
不成比例地患上新冠病毒?
How can I be a part of the struggle
我们怎么才能成为 这场抗争的一部分,
to upend those policies and replace them with more antiracist policies?
去用反种族主义的 政策取代现有的政策呢?
Whitney Pennington Rodgers: And so it sounds like
惠特尼·彭宁顿·罗杰斯: 听起来,
you do make that distinction, then, between not racist and anti-racist.
你确实把非种族主义者 和反种族主义者区分开了。
I guess, could you talk a little bit more about that and break that down?
可以深入聊聊这个话题吗?
What is the difference between the two?
这两者的区别是什么?
IXK: In the most simplest way,
伊布拉姆:简单地说,
a not racist is a racist who is in denial,
非种族主义者 不承认自己是种族主义者,
and an anti-racist is someone
而反种族主义者
who is willing to admit the times in which they are being racist,
愿意承认他们 表现出种族歧视的时刻,
and who is willing to recognize
愿意承认
the inequities and the racial problems of our society,
社会上的不公和种族问题,
and who is willing to challenge those racial inequities
并且愿意通过挑战政策
by challenging policy.
去挑战种族不平等。
And so I'm saying this because literally slaveholders, slave traders,
我这样说,是因为奴隶主、奴隶贩
imagined that their ideas in our terms were not racist.
以为他们的想法在我们 眼里不是种族主义。
They would say things like,
他们会说,
"Black people are the cursed descendants of Ham,
“黑人是被汉姆 诅咒的人的后代,
and they're cursed forever into enslavement."
他们被诅咒永远 受到奴役。”
This isn't, "I'm not racist."
这不是在辩解, “我不是种族主义者,”
This is, "God's law."
而是 “上帝的定律。”
They would say things, like, you know,
他们会这样说,
"Based on science, based on ethnology,
“根据科学和人种学,
based on natural history,
还有自然历史,
black people by nature
黑色人种天然就
are predisposed to slavery and servility.
倾向于习惯奴隶制和奴性。
This is nature's law. I'm not racist.
这是自然的规律。 我不是种族主义者。
I'm actually doing what nature said I'm supposed to be doing."
我只是在顺应自然规律罢了。”
And so this construct of being not racist and denying one's racism
这种非种族主义的构想 和否认种族歧视的做法
goes all the way back to the origins of this country.
可以追溯到 这个国家的起源。
CS: Yeah.
科洛·莎莎:好的。
And why do you think it has been so hard
那么你觉得为什么 人们那么难接受
for some people now to still accept that neutrality is not enough
对于种族主义来说, 中立态度还远远不够
when it comes to racism?
这一想法呢?
IXK: I think because it takes a lot of work to be anti-racist.
伊布拉姆:因为成为 反种族主义者要付出努力。
You have to be very vulnerable, right?
你要变得非常谦卑,对吧?
You have to be willing to admit that you were wrong.
你必须愿意承认 自己是错的。
You have to be willing to admit
你必须愿意承认
that if you have more, if you're white, for instance,
如果你拥有更多, 例如你是白人,
and you have more,
然后你拥有更多,
it may not be because you are more.
这可能不意味着 你更优秀。
You have to admit that, yeah, you've worked hard
你必须承认,你在生活中
potentially, in your life,
努力工作过,
but you've also had certain advantages
但你也有一定的有利条件,
which provided you with opportunities
它们给予了你
that other people did not have.
别人没有的机遇。
You have to admit those things,
你必须承认这些事实,
and it's very difficult
当众这样做
for people to be publicly,
的确很难,
and even privately, self-critical.
甚至私下里 自我反省也很难。
I think it's also the case of,
我想这也适用于——
and I should have probably led with this,
其实我可能应该 先讲一讲这个概念——
how people define "racist."
人们定义“种族主义者“的方式。
And so people tend to define "racist"
人们倾向于把“种族主义者”
as, like, a fixed category,
当作一种一成不变的特征,
as an identity.
定义成一种身份。
This is essential to who a person is.
身份对于一个人 来说很关键。
Someone becomes a racist.
一个人“成为了”种族主义者。
And so therefore --
那么——
And then they also connect a racist with a bad, evil person.
人们还把种族主义者 跟邪恶的人联系起来,
They connect a racist with a Ku Klux Klansman or woman.
与 3K 党联系起来。
And they're like, "I'm not in the Ku Klux Klan,
他们说,“我不属于 3K 党。”
I'm not a bad person
我不是坏人,
and I've done good things in my life.
我在生活中做过很多好事。
I've done good things to people of color.
我为有色人种 做过好事。
And so therefore I can't be racist.
因此我不可能是种族主义者。
I'm not that. That's not my identity.
我不是。 那不是我的身份。
But that's actually not how we should be defining racist.
但这其实不是我们定义 种族主义者的方式。
Racist is a descriptive term.
种族主义者是一个 描述性词语。
It describes what a person is saying or doing in any given moment,
它形容一个人某一刻 说的和做的事,
and so when a person in one moment
也就是当一个人表达 种族主义观点
is expressing a racist idea,
的那一瞬间,
in that moment they are being racist when they're saying black people are lazy.
或者在一个人说 黑人很懒的那一瞬间。
If in the very next moment
但如果在下一秒,
they're appreciating the cultures of native people,
他们欣赏原住民的文化,
they're being anti-racist.
那么他们就是反种族主义的。
WPR: And we're going to get to some questions
惠特尼·罗杰斯: 下面我们要回答一下
from our community in a moment,
观众们的问题,
but I think when a lot of people hear this idea that you're putting forward,
不过我认为很多人 听到你提出的
this idea of anti-racism,
反种族主义的观点,
there's this feeling that this is something
他们会感觉这是
that only concerns the white community.
白人群体才应该 关心的问题。
And so could you speak a little bit to how the black community
你可以谈一谈黑人群体,
and nonwhite, other ethnic minorities
和其他非白人的种族群体
can participate in and think about this idea of anti-racism?
可以怎样参与和思考 反种族主义吗?
IXK: Sure.
伊布拉姆·肯迪: 当然可以。
So if white Americans commonly say, "I'm not racist,"
比如,美国的白人通常说, “我不是种族歧视者,”
people of color commonly say,
有色人种习惯说,
"I can't be racist,
“我不可能种族歧视,
because I'm a person of color."
因为我是有色人种。”
And then some people of color say they can't be racist
然后一些有色人种说 他们不可能种族歧视,
because they have no power.
因为他们没有权力。
And so, first and foremost,
首先,
what I've tried to do in my work is to push back against this idea
我在我的作品中 尝试反对这种
that people of color have no power.
有色人种 没有权力的观点。
There's nothing more disempowering
没什么比说或者想,
to say, or to think, as a person of color,
作为有色人种 我们没有权力,
than to say you have no power.
更削弱自信的了。
People of color have long utilized the most basic power
有色人种很长时间以来一直在利用
that every human being has,
人人都有的基本权力,
and that's the power to resist policy --
那就是抵制政策的力量——
that's the power to resist racist policies,
抵制种族主义政策,
that's the power to resist a racist society.
抵制种族主义社会的力量。
But if you're a person of color,
不过,如果你是有色人种,
and you believe that people coming here
而你相信从洪都拉斯 和萨尔瓦多
from Honduras and El Salvador
来到这里的人们
are invading this country,
正在入侵这个国家,
you believe that these Latinx immigrants
你相信拉丁美裔的移民
are animals and rapists,
都是动物和强奸犯——
then you're certainly not, if you're black or Asian or native,
如果你是黑人、亚洲人或原住民,
going to be a part of the struggle
那么你绝对不会并加入到
to defend Latinx immigrants,
捍卫拉丁美裔移民的斗争中,
to recognize that Latinx immigrants have as much to give to this country
承认拉丁美裔移民 可以和其他种族一样
as any other group of people,
为这个国家做贡献,
you're going to view these people as "taking away your jobs,"
你将会认为这些人 “抢走了你的工作,”
and so therefore you're going to support racist rhetoric,
所以你会支持 种族主义的言辞,
you're going to support racist policies,
你会支持种族主义政策,
and even though that is probably going to be harming you,
即使这可能也会 让你自己的利益受损。
in other words, it's going to be harming,
换句话说, 这对你是有害的,
if you're black, immigrants coming from Haiti and Nigeria,
如果你是从海地或者 尼日利亚来的黑人移民,
if you're Asian, immigrants coming from India.
如果你是从印度来的亚洲移民。
So I think it's critically important for even people of color
所以我觉得即使对于 有色人种来说,
to realize they have the power to resist,
意识到他们有权反抗 是极为重要的。
and when people of color view other people of color as the problem,
当有色人种把其他 有色人种看作问题,
they're not going to view racism as the problem.
他们就不会把 种族主义当成问题。
And anyone who is not viewing racism as the problem
当一个人不把 种族主当成问题,
is not being anti-racist.
他就不是反种族主义者。
CS: You touched on this a bit in your beginning talk here,
科洛·莎莎:你在开始时提到了,
but you've talked about how racism is the reason
但你说到种族主义导致
that black communities and communities of color
黑人群体和有色人种群体
are systematically disadvantaged in America,
在美国系统地 处于不利条件,
which has led to so many more deaths from COVID-19 in those communities.
这导致了这些群体中 更多人死于新冠病毒。
And yet the media is often placing the blame on people of color
然而媒体经常 把这归咎于有色人种
for their vulnerability to illness.
在疾病面前脆弱。
So I'm curious, in line with that,
我很好奇,对于这种说法,
what is the relationship between anti-racism
反种族主义和 系统改变的可能性
and the potential for systemic change?
有什么关系呢?
IXK: I think it's a direct relationship,
伊布拉姆: 我觉得二者有直接的关系,
because when you are --
因为当你——
when you believe and have consumed racist ideas,
当你相信并接纳了 种族主义观点后,
you're not going to even believe change is necessary
你甚至不会觉得 改革是必要的,
because you're going to believe that racial inequality is normal.
因为你将会相信 种族不平等是正常的,
Or, you're not going to believe change is possible.
或者你不会相信 改革是可能的。
In other words, you're going to believe that the reason why black people
换句话说,你会认为黑人被警察
are being killed by police at such high rates
杀害的概率很高,
or the reason why Latinx people are being infected at such high rates
或者拉丁美裔人 新冠病毒感染率高
is because there's something wrong with them,
是由于他们自己的问题,
and nothing can be changed.
没什么可以改变的。
And so you wouldn't even begin to even see the need
因此,你甚至不会开始看到
for systemic structural change,
对系统性结构变化的需求,
let alone be a part of the struggle for systemic structural change.
更不用说加入促进 系统性结构变化的抗争。
And so, to be anti-racist, again,
所以成为反种族主义者
is to recognize
就需要认识到
that there's only two causes of racial inequity:
有两个原因导致了 种族不平等:
either there's something wrong with people,
一是人们自己有问题,
or there's something wrong with power and policy.
二是权力和政策有问题。
And if you realize that there's nothing wrong with any group of people,
如果你意识到没有 任何群体有问题,
and I keep mentioning groups --
我强调是群体——
I'm not saying individuals.
而不是个人。
There's certainly black individuals
有个别的黑人
who didn't take coronavirus seriously,
的确不把新冠病毒当回事儿,
which is one of the reasons why they were infected.
这也是他们感染的原因之一。
But there are white people who didn't take coronavirus seriously.
但也有白人不认真 看待新冠病毒。
No one has ever proven, actually studies have shown
没有人曾经证明过—— 实际上,反而有研究表明,
that black people were more likely to take the coronavirus seriously
黑人比白人更有可能认真对待
than white people.
新冠病毒。
We're not talking about individuals here,
我们不是在说个人,
and we certainly should not be individualizing groups.
我们不应该个人化群体。
We certainly should not be looking at the individual behavior
我们不应该看到 一个拉丁美裔
of one Latinx person or one black person,
或黑人的行为,
and saying they're representatives of the group.
就说他们代表整个群体。
That's a racist idea in and of itself.
这本身就是一个 种族主义观点。
And so I'm talking about groups,
所以我说的始终都是群体,
and if you believe that groups are equals,
并且前提是你相信 所有群体都是平等的,
then the only other alternative,
那么另一个唯一的原因,
the only other explanation to persisting inequity and injustice,
另一个对持续的 不平等和不公正的解释
is power and policy.
就是权力和政策。
And to then spend your time transforming and challenging power and policy
花时间去改变和 挑战权力与政策
is to spend your time being anti-racist.
就是花时间反种族主义。
WPR: So we have some questions that are coming in from the audience.
惠特尼·罗杰斯:我们有一些 来自听众的问题。
First one here is from a community member
第一个问题来自 一位社区成员:
that asks, "When we talk about white privilege,
“当我们谈到白种人的特权,
we talk also about the privilege not to have the difficult conversations.
我们也会谈到不用进行 如此艰难的对话的特权。
Do you feel that's starting to change?"
你觉得事情开始改变了吗?
IXK: I hope so,
伊布拉姆: 我希望是的,
because I think
因为我认为
that white Americans, too,
美国的白种人
need to simultaneously recognize
也需要同时承认
their privileges,
他们的特权,
the privileges that they have accrued
他们因为肤色白
as a result of their whiteness,
而积累的特权,
and the only way in which they're going to be able to do that
他们那么做的 唯一办法就是
is by initiating and having these conversations.
发起并进行这些对话。
But then they also should recognize
但是他们也应该承认,
that, yes, they have more,
是的,美国白种人
white Americans have more,
因为种族主义政策
due to racist policy,
而获得了更多优势,
but the question I think white Americans should be having,
但我觉得美国白种人 在自己的族群中
particularly when they're having these conversations among themselves,
进行这些谈话时, 应该问问自己,
is, if we had a more equitable society,
如果我们有一个更公正的社会,
would we have more?
我们还会有这些优势吗?
Because what I'm asking is that, you know,
因为我想问的是,
white Americans have more because of racism,
美国白种人因为 种族主义的存在而占据了优势,
but there are other groups of people in other Western democracies
但在其他西方民主国家, 一些其他种族的人群
who have more than white Americans,
比美国白种人拥有更多,
and then you start to ask the question,
然后你会开始问,
why is it that people in other countries have free health care?
为什么那些国家的人 有免费的医疗?
Why is it that they have paid family leave?
为什么他们有带薪探亲假?
Why is it that they have a massive safety net?
为什么他们有一个 巨大的社会安全网?
Why is it that we do not?
为什么我们没有?
And one of the major answers
一个主要原因就是
to why we do not here have is racism.
我们这里的种族主义。
One of the major answers as to why
特朗普可以成为美国总统,
Donald Trump is President of the United States
主要原因就是
is racism.
种族主义。
And so I'm not really asking white Americans to be altruistic
我不是想让美国白种人 为了反种族主义
in order to be anti-racist.
而变得无私。
We're really asking people
我们只是让人们
to have intelligent self-interest.
拥有明智的自我利益。
Those four million, I should say five million poor whites in 1860
1860 年,有 400 万, 或者说 500 万
whose poverty was the direct result
贫困的白人人口,
of the riches of a few thousand white slaveholding families,
他们的贫困是由几千个 白人奴隶主家庭导致的。
in order to challenge slavery,
为了挑战奴隶制,
we weren't saying, you know, we need you to be altruistic.
我们不会说, 我们需要你们无私。
No, we actually need you to do what's in your self-interest.
不,实际上我们需要你 做符合自身利益的事。
Those tens of millions of Americans, white Americans, who have lost their jobs
那几千万因为疫情
as a result of this pandemic,
失去工作的美国白人,
we're not asking them to be altruistic.
我们不是要让他们变得无私,
We're asking them to realize that if we had a different type of government
而是想让他们意识到, 如果我们的政府不一样,
with a different set of priorities,
优先事项不一样,
then they would be much better off right now.
他们会比现在活得更好。
I'm sorry, don't get me started.
对不起,我情绪有点激动。
CS: No, we're grateful to you. Thank you.
科洛·莎莎:没关系, 我们要谢谢你的坦诚。
And in line with that,
借着你的话题,
obviously these protests and this movement have led to some progress:
一系列游行和这次运动 明显带来了进步:
the removal of Confederate monuments,
同盟纪念碑的拆除,
the Minneapolis City Council pledging to dismantle the police department, etc.
明尼阿波利斯市议会 承诺解散警察局,等等。
But what do you view as the greatest priority on a policy level
那么你觉得从政策层面看, 这次为正义的抗争中,
as this fight for justice continues?
什么是最重要的?
Are there any ways in which we could learn from other countries?
我们可以从其他国家 那里学到什么吗?
IXK: I don't actually think necessarily
伊布拉姆: 实际上,我认为
there's a singular policy priority.
我们并不一定需要所谓的优先政策。
I mean, if someone was to force me to answer,
如果非要说的话,
I would probably say two,
我可能会说两个,
and that is,
也就是,
high quality free health care for all,
为所有人提供 高质量的免费医疗。
and when I say high quality,
我所谓的高质量不仅是指
I'm not just talking about Medicare For All,
美国医疗法案 (“Medicare For All”),
I'm talking about a simultaneous scenario
而且还包括
in which in rural southwest Georgia,
佐治亚州西南部,
where the people are predominantly black
黑人为主要人口,
and have some of the highest death rates in the country,
新冠死亡率全国最高的
those counties in southwest Georgia,
地区之一的
from COVID,
那些郡,
that they would have access to health care
可以使用与亚特兰大
as high quality as people do in Atlanta and New York City,
和纽约市一样 高质量的医疗服务。
and then, simultaneously,
同时,
that that health care would be free.
我希望相关的 医疗服务会是免费的。
So many Americans not only of course are dying this year of COVID
今年,很多美国人 除了死于新冠,
but also of heart disease and cancer,
也死于心脏病和癌症,
which are the number one killers before COVID of Americans,
这两种病在新冠出现前 是美国人的第一杀手,
and they're disproportionately black.
黑人的患病率尤其的高。
And so I would say that,
所以这是第一点,
and then secondarily, I would say reparations.
第二点就是补偿。
And many Americans claim
很多美国人声称
that they believe in racial equality,
他们相信种族平等,
they want to bring about racial equality.
他们想实现种族平等。
Many Americans recognize just how critical economic livelihood is
很多美国人承认 经济生计对于
for every person in this country, in this economic system.
这个国家、这个经济系统 的每一个人有多重要。
But then many Americans reject or are not supportive of reparations.
但很多美国人同时也会 拒绝或不支持补偿。
And so we have a situation
所以我们的情况是,
in which white Americans
至少上次我查询的时候,
are, last I checked,
美国白人
their median wealth is 10 times the median wealth of black Americans,
收入中位数是黑人的十倍。
and according to a recent study,
而根据最近的一项调查,
by 2053 --
到了 2053 年的时候——
between now, I should say, and 2053,
或者说,从现在 到 2053 年之间,
white median wealth is projected to grow,
根据预测,白人收入中位数 还会继续增长,
and this was before this current recession,
这是在这次 经济萧条前的预测,
and black median wealth
而黑人的收入中位数
is expected to redline at zero dollars,
则会减少到零,
and that, based on this current recession, that may be pushed up a decade.
如果考虑到现在的经济萧条状况, 这会提前十年发生。
And so we not only have a racial wealth gap,
因此我们不仅有种族财富差距,
but we have a racial wealth gap that's growing.
而且这个差距还在增长。
And so for those Americans who claim
那些声称自己
they are committed to racial equality
致力于种族平等的美国人,
who also recognize the importance of economic livelihood
他们也意识到了 经济生计的重要性,
and who also know that wealth is inherited,
也知道财富是继承的,
and the majority of wealth is inherited,
大部分财富都是继承的。
and when you think of the inheritance,
当你想到继承,
you're thinking of past,
你会想到过去,
and the past policies
以前的政策
that many Americans consider to be racist,
被许多美国人 认为是种族主义的,
whether it's slavery or even redlining,
无论是奴隶制还是贷款歧视,
how would we even begin to close
如果我们没有大规模的 补偿性项目,
this growing racial wealth gap
我们怎么可能开始缩小
without a massive program like reparations?
这种种族间日益增加的贫富差距?
WPR: Well, sort of connected to this idea of thinking about wealth disparity
惠特尼·罗杰斯: 把这个想法可以跟美国的
and wealth inequality in this country,
财富不平等现象联系在一起,
we have a question from community member Dana Perls.
我们有来自社区成员 达娜·佩尔斯的一个问题。
She asks, "How do you suggest liberal white organizations
她问,“你建议自由白人组织
effectively address problems of racism within the work environment,
怎样有效处理 工作环境中的种族歧视,
particularly in environments where people remain silent in the face of racism
特别是那些人们选择 在面对种族主义时保持沉默,
or make token statements without looking internally?"
或者只是面子上表个态, 但是并不解决根本问题的环境?”
IXK: Sure.
伊布拉姆: 好的。
And so I would make a few suggestions.
我会提出几个建议。
One, for several decades now,
第一,几十年来,
every workplace has publicly pledged
所有工作场所都公开声明,
a commitment to diversity.
承诺多样化。
Typically, they have diversity statements.
一般来说,他们都有 自己的多样性声明。
I would basically rip up those diversity statements
我想撕掉那些多样性声明,
and write a new statement,
然后写一份新的,
and that's a statement committed to anti-racism.
这份新的声明致力于反种族主义。
And in that statement you would clearly define what a racist idea is,
在声明里面,我们会 清楚地定义种族主义、
what an anti-racist idea is,
反种族主义,
what a racist policy is and what an anti-racist policy is.
以及种族主义政策和 反种族主义政策。
And you would state as a workplace that you're committed
然后它会说明这个工作场所
to having a culture of anti-racist ideas
致力于培养 反种族主义文化,
and having an institution made up of anti-racist policies.
作为一个机构 制定反种族主义政策。
And so then everybody can measure everyone's ideas
这样一来,每个人 都可以评价别人的想法,
and the policies of that workplace based on that document.
那个工作场所的规定 也可以遵循这份文件。
And I think that that could begin the process of transformation.
我觉得这会是 整个转变过程的开始。
I also think it's critically important
我觉得这很重要,
for workplaces to not only diversify their staff
工作场所不仅应该 多样化他们的员工,
but diversify their upper administration.
而且要多样化 他们的高层管理。
And I think that's absolutely critical as well.
我觉得这也是非常关键的。
CS: We have some more questions coming in from the audience.
科洛·莎莎:我们还有 来自观众的更多问题。
We have one from Melissa Mahoney,
有一个问题来自 梅利莎·马奥尼:
who is asking, "Donald Trump seems to be making supporting Black Lives Matter
“特朗普似乎把支持 ‘黑人的命也是命’ (Black Lives Matter)运动
a partisan issue,
当作一个党派问题,
for example making fun of Mitt Romney
比如,他嘲笑 米特·罗姆尼(Mitt Romney)
for participating in a peaceful protest.
参与了一次和平抗议。
How do we uncouple this to make it nonpartisan?"
我们如何能够把它 跟党派分体分离开呢?
IXK: Well, I mean, I think that to say the lives of black people
伊布拉姆: 我觉得,说保护黑人的生命
is a Democratic declaration
是民主党的宣言,
is simultaneously stating
同时也是在暗示
that Republicans do not value black life.
共和党不关心黑人的生命。
If that's essentially what Donald Trump is saying,
如果那是特朗普的意思,
if he's stating
如果他是在说,
that there's a problem with marching for black lives,
以为黑人争取更好的生活 为目标的游行是有问题的,
then what is the solution?
那解决办法是什么?
The solution is not marching. What's the other alternative?
如果游行不是解决办法, 别的选择是什么?
The other alternative is not marching for black lives.
另一个办法就是不游行,
The other alternative is not caring when black people die of police violence
不关心黑人死于警察暴力,
or COVID.
或者新冠病毒。
And so to me, the way in which we make this a nonpartisan issue
对于我来说,要让 这个问题去党派化,
is to strike back
就要反击,
or argue back in that way,
用这种方式反驳,
and obviously Republicans are going to claim
共和党明显会声明
they're not saying that,
这不是他们的意思,
but it's a very simple thing:
但这件事很简单:
either you believe black lives matter
你要么相信 “黑人的命也是命”,
or you don't,
要么就不相信,
and if you believe black lives matter
而如果你相信黑人的 生命是珍贵的,
because you believe in human rights,
因为你相信人权,
then you believe in the human right for black people and all people to live
那么你也会相信黑人和 所有人都拥有生存的权利,
and to not have to fear police violence
不用害怕警察暴力的权利,
and not have to fear the state
不用害怕州政府,
and not have to fear that a peaceful protest
不用害怕和平的游行
is going to be broken up
会被镇压,
because some politician wants to get a campaign op,
因为如果一些政客 想获得竞选机会,
then you're going to institute policy that shows it.
那他们就要制定政策来证明。
Or, you're not.
不然,想都别想。
WPR: So I want to ask a question
惠特尼·罗杰斯: 我有个问题,
just about how people can think about anti-racism
关于人们如何思考反种族主义,
and how they can actually bring this into their lives.
以及他们怎么才能将其 融入自己的的生活,
I imagine that a lot of folks,
我想很多人
they hear this and they're like,
听到这里会想,
oh, you know, I have to be really thoughtful
我必须很小心,
about how my actions and my words
谨慎思考我的 一言一行
are perceived.
会怎么被看待,
What is the perceived intention behind what it is that I'm saying,
我说话的意图 会怎样被理解,
and that that may feel exhausting,
这一定很累人,
and I think that connects even to this idea of policy.
我想这也关系到 关于这个政策的话题。
And so I'm curious.
所以我很好奇,
There is a huge element of thoughtfulness
成为反种族主义者的过程中,
that comes along
会伴有
with this work of being anti-racist.
大量的深思熟虑。
And what is your reaction and response to those who feel concerned
你对这种想法的 回应会是什么呢——
about the mental exhaustion from having to constantly think
有人担心会带来精神上的压力,
about how your actions may hurt or harm others?
因为一直要想着 自己的言行会不会伤害别人?
IXK: So I think part of the concern that people have about mental exhaustion
伊布拉姆:我觉得 人们担心会精神压力
is this idea
是因为
that they don't ever want to make a mistake,
他们不想犯任何错误,
and I think to be anti-racist
但我觉得要成为 反种族主义者,
is to make mistakes,
就是要犯错误,
and is to recognize when we make a mistake.
就是要承认我们 犯了一个错误。
For us, what's critical is to have those very clear definitions
对于我们来说, 有清楚的定义很重要,
so that we can assess our words,
这样我们才能 分析我们说的话,
we can assess our deeds,
分析我们的行动,
and when we make a mistake, we just own up to it and say,
当我们犯了错时, 我们直接承认说,
"You know what, that was a racist idea."
“那就是种族歧视。”
"You know what, I was supporting a racist policy, but I'm going to change."
“我支持了种族主义政策, 但我要改正。”
The other thing I think is important for us to realize
另一件我觉得很重要的事是,
is in many ways
我们要从各方面
we are addicted,
意识到我们上瘾了——
and when I say we, individuals and certainly this country,
我们指的是 这个国家的人们——
is addicted to racism,
对种族主义上瘾了。
and that's one of the reasons why
这就是那么多人否认
for so many people they're just in denial.
自己种族歧视的原因之一。
People usually deny their addictions.
人们通常会否认他们上瘾了,
But then, once we realize that we have this addiction,
然后,一旦我们 意识到我们有这种瘾,
everyone who has been addicted,
每个曾经上瘾的人,
you know, you talk to friends and family members
当你和曾经药物上瘾的
who are overcoming an addiction to substance abuse,
家人朋友聊天时,
they're not going to say
他们不会说
that they're just healed,
他们痊愈了,
that they don't have to think about this regularly.
他们不会再时不时想到这件事。
You know, someone who is overcoming alcoholism
一个正在戒酒瘾的人
is going to say, "You know what, this is a day-by-day process,
会说,“你知道吗, 这是一个日常的过程。
and I take it day by day
我在一天天,
and moment by moment,
一刻刻地克服它。
and yes, it's difficult
是的,很难去
to restrain myself
控制自己
from reverting back to what I'm addicted to,
不会再次上瘾。
but at the same time it's liberating,
但与此同时, 这让我得到了解放,
it's freeing,
我自由了,
because I'm no longer having to wallow in that addiction.
因为我不再受到成瘾的困扰,
And so I think, and I'm no longer having to hurt people
而我也不再因为我的成瘾问题
due to my addiction."
而伤害到别人了。“
And I think that's critical.
我觉得这是很关键的。
We spend too much time thinking about how we feel
我们花了太多时间 去思考我们的感受,
and less time thinking about how our actions and ideas make others feel.
忽略了我们的行动和 想法让别人怎么想。
And I think that's one thing that the George Floyd video
我想,乔治·弗洛伊德的视频 让很多美国人
forced Americans to do
被迫去做的,
was to really see and hear, especially,
就是去看和倾听,
how someone feels
他们的种族主义思想
as a result of their racism.
会让别有怎样的感受。
CS: We have another question from the audience.
科洛·莎莎:我们有来自 观众的另一个问题。
This one is asking about,
这个问题是:
"Can you speak to the intersectionality
“你可以谈谈反种族主义、
between the work of anti-racism, feminism and gay rights?
女权主义和同性恋 权利的交叉性吗?
How does the work of anti-racism relate and affect the work
反种族主义工作 如何关联和影响到
of these other human rights issues?"
其他人权问题?”
IXK: Sure.
伊布拉姆·肯迪: 当然了。
So I define a racist idea
我把种族主义思想
as any idea that suggests a racial group is superior
定义为以任何方式 判定一个种族
or inferior to another racial group in any way.
比其他种族更加优等或劣等。
And I use the term racial group
我用种族这个词,
as opposed to race
而不是人种,
because every race is a collection of racialized intersectional groups,
因为每个人种都是 一个特别多样的团体,
and so you have black women and black men
比如,会有黑人女性 和黑人男性,
and you have black heterosexuals and black queer people,
黑人异性恋和黑人酷儿,
just as you have Latinx women and white women and Asian men,
就像有拉丁裔女性, 白人女性和亚洲男性一样。
and what's critical for us to understand
我们一定要理解的是,
is there hasn't just been racist ideas
种族主义观点
that have targeted, let's say, black people.
并不只针对黑人。
There has been racist ideas that have been developed
同样也存在针对黑人女性、
and have targeted black women,
黑人女同性恋者,
that have targeted black lesbians,
以及黑人变性妇女的
that have targeted black transgender women.
种族主义观点,
And oftentimes these racist ideas targeting these intersectional groups
通常针对这些交叉群体的 种族主义观点,
are intersecting with other forms of bigotry
也与其他形式的 针对这些群体的偏见
that is also targeting these groups.
有交集。
To give an example about black women,
举个黑人女性的例子,
one of the oldest racist ideas about black women
最早的关于 黑人女性的种族主义观点
was this idea that they're inferior women
认为她们是更低等的女人,
or that they're not even women at all,
甚至认为她们 不是女性,
and that they're inferior to white women,
比白人女人更下等,
who are the pinnacle of womanhood.
而白人女人却被认为 是女性气质的典范。
And that idea has intersected
这种观点
with this sexist idea
与性别歧视的观点相互重叠,
that suggests that women are weak,
同样认为女性更脆弱,
that the more weak a person is, a woman is, the more woman she is,
认为女性越脆弱, 就更有女人味,
and the stronger a woman is, the more masculine she is.
强壮的女人更像男人。
These two ideas have intersected
这两种观点相互交织,
to constantly degrade black women
贬低黑人女性,
as this idea of the strong, black masculine woman
把她们描述成强壮的、 像男性的黑皮肤女人,
who is inferior to the weak, white woman.
比脆弱、白皮肤的女性更低等。
And so the only way to really understand these constructs
去理解这种构想, 认为脆弱、白皮肤的女性
of a weak, superfeminine white woman
很有女人味, 而强壮的黑人女性
and a strong, hypermasculine black woman
太像男人的唯一的办法,
is to understand sexist ideas,
就是去理解这种 性别歧视观点,
is to reject sexist ideas,
去拒绝这种观点。
and I'll say very quickly, the same goes for the intersection
我还想顺便提一句, 种族主义和仇同性恋的交集
of racism and homophobia,
也是一样的,
in which black queer people have been subjected to this idea
黑人同性恋者 常被认为是
that they are more hypersexual
更性欲亢进,
because there's this idea of queer people
因为同性恋者 总是被看作
as being more hypersexual than heterosexuals.
比双性恋者 更加性欲亢进。
And so black queer people have been tagged
因此黑人同性恋者 也常被认为比
as more hypersexual than white queer people
白人同性恋者, 或者黑人双性恋者
and black heterosexuals.
更性欲亢进。
And you can't really see that and understand that and reject that
如果你不拒绝和挑战 仇同性恋的想法,
if you're not rejecting and understanding and challenging homophobia too.
你就没办法去理解 和拒绝这种观点,
WPR: And to this point of challenging,
惠特尼·罗杰斯: 说到挑战,
we have another question from Maryam Mohit in our community,
我们有个来自社区成员 玛丽安·莫希特的问题:
who asks, "How do you see cancel culture and anti-racism interacting.
“你怎么看网上羞辱和 反种族主义的相互影响。
For example, when someone did something obviously racist in the past
比如,有个人在过去 涉嫌明显的种族歧视,
and it comes to light?"
而这件事最近曝光了?
How do we respond to that?
我们应该怎么回应呢?”
IXK: Wow.
伊布拉姆·肯迪: 哇哦。
So I think it's very, very complex.
我觉得这很复杂。
I do obviously encourage people
我的确支持人们
to transform themselves,
改变自己,
to change, to admit those times in which they were being racist,
去改正,去承认自己 种族歧视的时候,
and so obviously we as a community
很明显,我们作为一个社会,
have to give people that ability to do that.
应该给人们机会去改正。
We can't, when someone admits that they were being racist,
当有人承认他们 涉嫌种族主义时,
we can't immediately obviously cancel them.
我们明显不能 立刻抵制他们。
But I also think
但我也认为,
that there are people
有些人
who do something so egregious
做了后果太严重的事,
and there are people who are so unwilling
也有人不愿意
to recognize how egregious what they just did is,
承认他们犯的错误有多严重。
so in a particular moment,
所以在这时,
so not just the horrible, vicious act,
他们不仅仅做出了 可恶、恶毒的行为,
but then on top of that
更糟的是,
the refusal to even admit the horrible, vicious act.
他们还拒绝承认那 可恶、恶毒的行为。
In that case, I could see how people would literally want to cancel them,
这种情况下,我可以 理解为什么人们想
and I think that we have to,
抵制他们,我也认为 我们必须那么做。
on the other hand,
另一方面,
we have to have some sort of consequence,
这样的行为一定要有后果、
public consequence, cultural consequence,
公开的后果, 文化上的后果,
for people acting in a racist manner,
让涉嫌种族主义的人去承担,
especially in an extremely egregious way.
特别是那些 行为极其糟糕的。
And for many people, they've decided,
对很多人来说, 他们已经决定
you know what, I'm just going to cancel folks.
要去抵制一些人。
And I'm not going to necessarily critique them,
我不是在批评他们,
but I do think we should try to figure out a way
但我的确认为我们 应该找到一个办法,
to discern those who are refusing
分辨出那些拒绝
to transform themselves
改变自己的人,
and those who made a mistake and recognized it
和那些犯了错误 并承认了的、
and truly are committed to transforming themselves.
真正致力于 改变自我的人。
CS: Yeah, I mean,
科洛·莎莎: 是的,
one of the concerns many activists have been expressing
很多活动人担心的是,
is that the energy behind the Black Lives Matter movement
“黑人的命也是命”运动
has to stay high
一定要保持高涨的势头,
for anti-racist change to truly take place.
才能让反种族主义 成为现实。
I think that applies to what you just said as well.
我认为这也符合 你刚才的观点。
And I guess I'm curious what your opinion is
我有点好奇,你怎么看
on when the protests start to wane
当人们对游行的热情慢慢消退,
and people's donation-matching campaigns fade into the background,
人们的捐赠匹配 运动慢慢淡化,
how can we all ensure that this conversation
我们怎么才能 保证这些关于
about anti-racism stays central?
反种族主义的谈话 能持续获得关注呢?
IXK: Sure.
伊布拉姆·肯迪: 当然了。
So in "How to Be an Antiracist,"
在《如何成为反种族主义者》
in one of the final chapters,
最后的几章里,
is this chapter called "Failure."
有一章叫做《失败》。
I talked about what I call feelings advocacy,
我在里面介绍了所谓 “感觉宣传”的概念,
and this is people feeling bad about what's happening,
这是当人们对发生的 事情感觉很糟糕时,
what happened to George Floyd
比如发生在 乔治·弗洛伊德身上的事,
or what happened to Ahmaud Arbery or what happened to Breonna Taylor.
还有艾莫·阿伯里(Ahmaud Arbery) 和布伦娜·泰勒(Breonna Taylor)。
They just feel bad about this country and where this country is headed.
人们为这个国家以及 它的未来感到难过。
And so the way they go about feeling better
因此他们让自己 感觉好些的办法
is by coming to a demonstration.
就是去参与一场示威游行。
The way they go about feeling better
让他们感觉好些的方法还有
is by donating to a particular organization.
给特定组织进行捐赠。
The way they go about feeling better
另一些办法包括
is reading a book.
读一本书。
And so if this is what many Americans are doing,
如果这是很多 美国人都在做的,
then once they feel better,
一旦他们感觉好些了,
in other words once the individual feels better through their participation
或者说,当他们参与了读书俱乐部,
in book clubs or demonstrations
游行示威和宣传运动
or donation campaigns,
并感觉好些后,
then nothing is going to change except, what, their own feelings.
除了他们的感觉, 什么都没有变。
And so we need to move past our feelings.
所以我们要 超越自己的感受,
And this isn't to say that people shouldn't feel bad,
这不意味着人们 不应该感到糟糕,
but we should use our feelings,
我们要用自己的感受,
how horrible we feel about what is going on,
对正在发生的一切的糟糕感受
to put into place, put into practice,
付诸于行动,
anti-racist power and policies.
体现在反种族主义力量和政策之中。
In other words, our feelings should be driving us.
换句话说,我们的 感受应该激励我们。
They shouldn't be the end all.
他们不应该是 一切的结局。
This should not be about making us feel better.
这不是为了让 我们感觉更好。
This should be about transforming this country,
这是为了改变这个国家,
and we need to keep our eyes on transforming this country,
我们需要把注意力放在 改变这个国家上,
because if we don't,
因为如果我们不那么做,
then once people feel better after this is all over,
一旦一切结束, 人们感觉好些后,
then we'll be back to the same situation of being horrified by another video,
我们就又会回到被暴力 录像震惊到的处境当中,
and then feeling bad,
然后又感觉很糟糕,
and then the cycle will only continue.
然后这样 恶性循环下去。
WPR: You know, I think when we think about
惠特尼·罗杰斯: 当我们
what sort of changes we can implement
思考我们可以 带来什么改变,
and how we could make the system work better,
以及我们怎么让整个 系统运作得更好,
make our governments work better,
让我们的政府 更好地运行,
make our police work better,
让我们的警察 更有效的时候,
are there models in other countries
别的国家有没有 现成的模型——
where -- obviously the history in the United States is really unique
很明显,美国的 历史是独特的,
in terms of thinking about race and oppression.
当我们谈到种族 和压迫时。
But when you look to other nations and other cultures,
但如果我们看看 其他国家和文化,
are there other models that you look at as examples
有没有你让觉得值得借鉴,
that we could potentially implement here?
我们在这里可以效仿的模式呢?
IXK: I mean, there are so many.
伊布拉姆·肯迪: 有很多。
There are countries in which police officers don't wear weapons.
在有些国家, 警察是不携带武器的。
There are countries
在另一些国家,
who have more people than the United States
他们的人口远多于美国,
but less prisoners.
但囚犯更少。
There are countries
还有一些国家
who try to fight violent crime
在努力和暴力犯罪抗争时,
not with more police and prisons
不是用更多警察和监狱,
but with more jobs and more opportunities,
而是通过提供更多的 工作岗位和机会。
because they know and see that the communities
因为他们知道,
with the highest levels of violent crime
犯罪率较高的社区,
tend to be communities with high levels of poverty
通常也是贫困率和失业率
and long-term unemployment.
较高的社区。
I think that --
我觉得——
And then, obviously,
当然,很明显,
other countries provide pretty sizable social safety nets for people
其他国家为公民 提供了更好的社会福利,
such that people are not committing crimes out of poverty,
因而他们的公民不会 被贫困逼着去犯罪,
such that people are not committing crimes out of despair.
人们也不会因为 太绝望而犯罪。
And so I think that it's critically important for us
所以我觉得重点在于,
to first and foremost
我们要首先
think through, OK, if there's nothing wrong with the people,
认真想清楚人们 是不是无辜的,
then how can we go about reducing police violence?
然后在思考如何减少警察暴力?
How can we go about reducing racial health inequities?
如何减少种族健康不平等?
What policies can we change? What policies have worked?
我们可以改变什么政策? 什么政策是可行的?
These are the types of questions we need to be asking,
这都是我们要问的问题,
because there's never really been anything wrong with the people.
因为人们真的没有什么过错。
CS: In your "Atlantic" piece
科洛·莎莎: 在你给《大西洋》杂志写的
called "Who Gets To Be Afraid in America," you wrote,
《在美国的哪些人应该感到害怕》里写到,
"What I am, a black male, should not matter.
“这跟我是什么种族—— 黑人男性——没什么关系。
Who I am should matter."
‘我是谁’ 才是重要的。“
And I feel that's kind of what you're saying,
我觉得你似乎在暗示,
that in other places maybe that's more possible,
在其他地方这样的观点 更容易被接纳。
and I'm curious when you imagine
我很好奇,你想象中的
a country in which who you are mattered first,
一个“你是谁”更重要的国家,
what does that look like?
会是怎么样的呢?
IXK: Well, what it looks like for me as a black American
伊布拉姆·肯迪: 作为一个美国黑人,
is that people do not view me as dangerous
我觉得那意味着, 人们不觉得我危险,
and thereby make my existence dangerous.
也因此不觉得 我的存在是危险的。
It allows me to walk around this country
我可以在这个国家 自由行走,
and to not believe that people are going to fear me
而不用担心 人们会害怕我,
because of the color my skin.
只因为我的皮肤是黑色的。
It allows me to believe, you know what,
我可以相信,
I didn't get that job because I could have done better on my interview,
我没得到那份工作, 因为我面试本可以做得更好,
not because of the color of my skin.
而不是因为我的肤色。
It allows me to --
我可以——
a country where there's racial equity,
一个种族平等的国家,
a country where there's racial justice,
一个有种族公正的国家,
you know, a country where there's shared opportunity,
一个有共享机会的国家,
a country where African American culture and Native American culture
在这个国家里, 黑人和原住民文化,
and the cultures of Mexican Americans
墨西哥裔美国人的文化,以及
and Korean Americans are all valued equally,
韩国裔美国人的文化 都受到同样重视,
that no one is being asked to assimilate into white American culture.
没有人会被美国 白人文化同化。
There's no such thing as standard professional wear.
标准的正装是不存在的。
There's no such thing as, well, you need to learn how to speak English
你不需要学会 如何讲英语
in order to be an American.
才能成为美国人。
And we would truly not only have equity and justice for all
我们不但真的会有 针对所有人的公平正义,
but we would somehow have found a way
而且会找到一个办法
to appreciate difference,
去欣赏差异,
to appreciate all of the human ethnic and cultural difference
去欣赏存在于整个美国的,
that exists in the United States.
所有人的民族和文化差异。
This is what could make this country great,
这是让这个国家 强大起来的方法,
in which we literally become a country
我们真的需要成为 这样一个国家,
where you could literally travel around this country
你通过四处旅行
and learn about cultures from all over the world
就可以学习到 全世界的文化,
and appreciate those cultures,
欣赏那些文化,
and understand even your own culture
甚至通过别人在做的事
from what other people are doing.
来理解你自己的文化。
There's so much beauty here amid all this pain
在一切的痛苦中, 还是有美的存在,
and I just want to peel away
我只想剥离、
and remove away
剔除
all of those scabs of racist policies
所有种族主义政策 带来的伤疤,
so that people can heal
这样人们才可以痊愈,
and so that we can see true beauty.
我们才可以看到真正的美。
WPR: And Ibram, when you think about this moment,
惠特尼·罗杰斯: 伊布拉姆,你觉得
where do you see that on the spectrum of progress
在获得真正的美的过程中,
towards reaching that true beauty?
我们目前正处在哪个阶段?
IXK: Well, I think, for me,
伊布拉姆·肯迪: 对我来说,
I always see progress and resistance in demonstrations
我总能在游行示威中 看到进步和抵抗,
and know just because people are calling from town squares
我也知道人们在城镇广场、
and from city halls
在市政厅
for progressive, systemic change that that change is here,
呼吁进步、呼吁系统性的改变,
but people are calling
但人们也在
and people are calling in small towns, in big cities,
小镇和大城市里呼吁,
and people are calling from places we've heard of
在我们听说过的地方,
and places we need to have heard of.
以及从未听说的地方呼吁。
People are calling for change, and people are fed up.
人们在呼吁改变, 他们受够了。
I mean, we're living in a time
我们生活在这样一个时代——
in which we're facing a viral pandemic,
我们正在面对 一场病毒疫情,
a racial pandemic within that viral pandemic
以及病毒疫情中的种族疫情,
of people of color disproportionately being infected and dying,
有色人种正不成比例地感染并死去,
even an economic pandemic
还有一场经济疫情,
with over 40 million Americans having lost their jobs,
超过 4000 万的美国人 失去了他们的工作。
and certainly this pandemic of police violence,
这场疫情也是 关于警察暴力的,
and then people demonstrating against police violence
游行示威反对 警察暴力的人们
only to suffer police violence at demonstrations.
在游行时遭受了警察暴力。
I mean, people see there's a fundamental problem here,
人们觉得这里面 有一个基本的问题,
and there's a problem that can be solved.
一个可以被解决的问题。
There's an America that can be created,
我们看到了一个 可以被改变的美国,
and people are calling for this,
人们正在呼吁这场改变,
and that is always the beginning.
这只是一个开始。
The beginning is what we're experiencing now.
我们正处于这波浪潮的开端。
CS: I think that this next audience question
科洛·莎莎:我觉得 有位观众的问题
follows well from that, which is,
衔接得正好——
"What gives you hope right now?"
“现在是什么给你带来了希望?“
IXK: So certainly resistance to racism has always given me hope,
伊布拉姆·肯迪: 对种族主义的反抗
and so even if, let's say,
给我带来了希望,
six months ago we were not in a time in which almost every night
在六个月前, 我们还并不能在每天晚上
all over this country people were demonstrating against racism,
都看到全国各地的人群 在游行反对种族主义,
but I could just look to history
但我也时常会回顾历史,
when people were resisting.
看看人们反抗的过程。
And so resistance always brings me hope,
反抗总是给我带来希望,
because it is always resistance,
因为反抗
and of course it's stormy,
当然是激烈的,
but the rainbow is typically on the other side.
但彩虹总在风雨后。
But I also receive hope philosophically,
我也从哲学上收获希望,
because I know that in order to bring about change,
因为我知道要带来改变,
we have to believe in change.
我们必须首先相信改变。
There's just no way a change maker can be cynical.
带来改变的人 不会是自私的。
It's impossible.
那是不可能的。
So I know I have to believe in change
我知道我一定要相信改变,
in order to bring it about.
才能带来改变。
WPR: And we have another question here
惠特尼·罗杰斯: 我们还有另一个问题,
which addresses some of the things you talked about before
涉及到了你之前 提到的一些观点,
in terms of the structural change that we need to bring about.
关于我们应该实现的 系统性改变。
From Maryam Mohit: "In terms of putting into practice the transformative policies,
问题来自玛丽安·莫希特: “为了施行转型性的政策,
is then the most important thing to loudly vote the right people
最重要的是 大力投票给正确的人,
into office at every level who can make those structural changes happen?"
让他们进入各个阶层, 做出结构性的改变吗?”
IXK: So I think that that is part of it.
伊布拉姆·肯迪: 我觉得那是一方面。
I certainly think we should vote into office
我的确认为
people who, from school boards to the President of the United States,
从学校董事会到美国总统, 我们都应该选举出
people who are committed
那些致力于
to instituting anti-racist policies
实行反种族主义政策,
that lead to equity and justice,
可以引领我们走向平等正义的人,
and I think that that's critically important,
我觉得那非常重要。
but I don't think
但我不认为
that we should think that that's the only thing we should be focused on
那是我们唯一要关注的东西,
or the only thing that we should be doing.
或者是唯一要做的事情。
And there are institutions,
有很多机构,
there are neighborhoods
很多社区
that need to be transformed,
都需要被改变,
that are to a certain extent
在一定程度上,
outside of the purview of a policymaker
这超过了政策制定者的能力范围,
who is an elected official.
他们是只是当选官员而已。
There are administrators and CEOs and presidents
还有很多管理者、 CEO,还有总裁们,
who have the power to transform policies
都有能力在他们
within their spheres, within their institutions,
各自的领域内, 各自的组织中改变政策。
and so we should be focused there.
我们应该把注意力 集中在那里。
The last thing I'll say about voting is,
我想说的关于选举的最后一点是,
I wrote a series of pieces for "The Atlantic" early this year
今年年初,我为《大西洋》写了
that sought to get Americans thinking about who I call
一系列试图让美国人 考虑我称之为
"the other swing voter,"
“别的摇摆选民”的文章,
and not the traditional swing voter who swings from Republican to Democrat
这些人不是传统意义上 在民主党和共和党之间摇摆的人,
who are primarily older and white.
那些人通常是 年纪较大的白人。
I'm talking about the people who swing from voting Democrat
我指的是那些从为民主党投票
to not voting at all.
摇摆到完全不投票的人。
And these people are typically younger
这些人通常更年轻,
and they're typically people of color,
他们通常是有色人种,
but they're especially young people of color,
尤其是有色人种中的年轻人,
especially young black and Latinx Americans.
特别是年轻的黑人 和拉丁裔美国人。
And so we should view these people,
我们应该把这些人,
these young, black and Latino voters
这些年轻、黑皮肤和 拉丁裔的选民看作
who are trying to decide whether to vote as swing voters
正在决定要不要 成为摇摆选民的人,
in the way we view these people
和那些在决定
who are trying to decide between whether to vote for, let's say,
在普选中,要投票给 拜登还是特朗普的人,
Trump or Biden in the general election.
一样看待。
In other words, to view them both as swing voters
换句话说,把他们 都看作是摇摆选民,
is to view them both in a way that, OK, we need to persuade these people.
意味着我们要把他们 看作需要被说服的人。
They're not political cattle.
他们不是政治笑话里的牛。
We're not just going to turn them out.
我们不会把他们拒之门外。
We need to encourage and persuade them,
我们需要鼓励和说服他们,
and then we also for these other swing voters
我们也要让投票 对他们来说
need to make it easier for them to vote,
变得更简单,
and typically these young people of color, it's the hardest for them to vote
特别是年轻的有色人种选民, 他们的投票难度最大,
because of voter suppression policies.
因为有选民镇压政策。
CS: Thank you, Ibram.
科洛·莎莎: 谢谢,伊布拉姆。
Well, we're going to come to a close of this interview,
我们的采访快要结束了,
but I would love to ask you
但我想让你
to read something that you wrote
读一段你几天前 在 Instagram 上
a couple of days ago on Instagram.
写的一些话。
You wrote this beautiful caption
你为一张你女儿的照片
on a photo of your daughter,
添加了一个优美的标题,
and I'm wondering if you'd be willing to share that with us
不知你愿不愿意 和我们分享它,
and briefly tell us how we could each take this perspective into our own lives.
并告诉我们怎样可以 用这种眼光看待生活。
IXK: Sure, so yeah,
伊布拉姆·肯迪: 当然可以了,
I posted a picture of my four-year-old daughter Imani,
我发布了一张我四岁的女儿 伊玛尼的照片,
and in the caption I wrote,
并写下了下面这段文字,
"I love, and because I love, I resist.
“我热爱,也因为热爱,抵抗。
There have been many theories
有很多种解释,
on what's fueling the growing demonstrations against racism
到底是什么刺激了 越来越多、公开或私密的
in public and private.
反种族主义游行。
Let me offer another one: love.
让我提出另一个解释:爱。
We love.
我们懂得爱。
We know the lives of our loved ones,
我们知道我们爱的人的生命,
especially our black loved ones,
特别是黑人 亲人们的生命
are in danger
在种族主义的暴力中
under the violence of racism.
正变得岌岌可危。
People ask me all the time what fuels me.
人们总是问 是什么在激励我。
It is the same: love,
答案是一样的:爱,
love of this little girl,
对这位小女孩的爱,
love of all the little and big people
对所有孩子、大人们的爱,
who I want to live full lives
我想让他们过上充实的生活,
in the fullness of their humanity,
人类本应享有的丰富的生活,
not barred by racist policies,
不被种族主义政策拒之门外,
not degraded by racist ideas,
不被种族主义思想诋毁,
not terrorized by racist violence.
不受种族主义暴力惊吓。
Let us be anti-racist.
让我们成为反种族主义者。
Let us defend life.
让我们捍卫生命。
Let us defend our human rights to live and live fully,
让我们捍卫生存和 享受充实生活的人权,
because we love."
因为我们懂得爱。
And, you know, Cloe, I just wanted to sort of emphasize
科洛,我只是想强调,
that at the heart of being anti-racist
爱才是反种族主义的
is love,
核心动力,
is loving one's country,
还有对祖国的热爱,
loving one's humanity,
对人类的热爱,
loving one's relatives and family and friends,
爱自己的亲人和好友,
and certainly loving oneself.
爱自己。
And I consider love to be a verb.
我把爱看作一个动词。
I consider love to be,
我认为爱是
I'm helping another, and even myself,
帮助别人,甚至帮助我自己,
to constantly grow into a better form of myself,
去不断地成长, 成为更好的自己,
of themselves, that they've expressed who they want to be.
更好的他人,就像 他们自己期待的那样。
And so to love this country and to love humanity
要爱人类和这个国家,
is to push humanity constructively
就要建设性地推动人类
to be a better form of itself,
成为更好的自己,
and there's no way we're going to be a better form,
要是我们还戴着 种族主义的枷锁,
there's no way we can build a better humanity,
我们就不可能 成为更好的自己,
while we still have on the shackles of racism.
也不可能让人类 变得更好。
WPR: I think that's so beautiful.
惠特尼·罗杰斯: 说得太好了。
I appreciate everything you've shared, Ibram.
我很感激你分享的一切,伊布拉姆。
I feel like it's made it really clear this is not an easy fix. Right?
我们意识到这不是个 容易解决的问题。
There is no band-aid option here
没有一个像创可贴一样
that will make this go away, that this takes work from all of us,
毫不费力的解决办法,
and I really appreciate all of the honesty
我很感谢你的坦诚
and thoughtfulness that you've brought to this today.
以及你今天给我们 带来的深思。
IXK: You're welcome.
伊布拉姆·肯迪: 不用客气。
Thank you so much for having this conversation with me.
谢谢你们邀请我 加入这场讨论。
CS: Thank you so much, Ibram.
科洛·莎莎: 谢谢你,伊布拉姆。
We're really grateful to you for joining us.
很感谢你能加入我们。
IXK: Thank you.
伊布拉姆·肯迪: 谢谢。