“保释金项目”如何改革美国刑事司法制度 Robin Steinberg and Manoush Zomorodi: The US is addicted to incarceration. Here's how to break the cycle

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演员: Robin Steinberg and Manoush Zomorodi


台词
Manoush Zomorodi: So, Robin Steinberg,
马努什 · 佐莫罗迪(Manoush Zomorodi): 罗宾 · 斯坦伯格(Robin Steinberg),
thank you so much for being my first official guest
谢谢您成为我第一个正式嘉宾,
as the new host of TED Radio Hour.
参与我作为新加入主持的 TED Radio Hour。
I'm pretty psyched about that.
我对此还蛮激动的。
Robin Steinberg: I'm delighted.
罗宾 · 斯坦伯格: 这是我的荣幸。
(Applause)
(掌声)
MZ: So OK, I want to start with the Bail Project,
MZ:所以我想从“保释金项目” (Bail Project)开始,
how it came to be, how you came up with the idea.
它是如何诞生的? 您是怎么想到这个点子的?
The story goes
我听说这故事发生在
that 10 years ago, you and your husband were eating Chinese takeout food
10 年前,你和丈夫一起 吃中餐外卖的时候,
when you came up with the concept.
想出了这个概念。
You'd been a public defender for over 30 years,
您成为公设辩护律师已经 30 余年,
but there was this moment where you decided something had to change.
但也就是那个时候, 您决定某些东西需要被改变。
RS: So we had both spent decades
RS:我和我丈夫作为公设辩护律师
in the trenches of the criminal legal system as public defenders,
已经花了好几十年 在刑事法律制度的战场上,
fighting for each and every client the best we could,
竭尽全力去为每个客户辩护,
defending people's humanity and their dignity
捍卫人类的人性与尊严,
and fighting for their freedom.
并为他们的自由而战。
And no matter how good we were as lawyers,
不管我们作为律师的专业水平有多高,
and I like to think we were really good,
而且我偏向认为 我们俩的专业技能很高,
and how forceful we fought on behalf of a client,
不管我们代表客户 抗争得多么强劲有力,
sometimes it all came down to a few hundred dollars.
有时只取决于几百美元。
And that was whether or not your client could pay bail
这没有考虑到我们客户 是否支付得起这笔保释金,
and fight her case from freedom
要么她可以保持自由之身 而进行辩护,
or whether she was going to be locked in jail on Rikers Island
要么她就可能要被关在 赖克斯岛的狱中,
and desperate would wind up pleading guilty,
而绝望的人最后就会认罪,
whether she did it or not.
不管她是否犯罪。
And that just enraged us.
这种现象让我们很愤怒。
And sometimes, you know,
而且有时候,
the answers are simple and they're right in front of you.
答案很简单,它们就在你的面前。
And so we thought,
所以我们想:
"Well, what if we just paid clients' bail?"
“如果我们为客户们支付保释金?”
And that's where the idea of creating a revolving bail fund --
这就是我们创建 循环保释基金的想法——
because bail comes back at the end of a case,
因为保释金 在案件的最后会被退回,
if we could raise money and put it in a fund,
如果我们可以为这个基金筹集资金,
and have a revolving fund,
创建一个循环基金,
we could just pay bail for our clients.
我们就能为客户支付保释金。
Now I have to say, that was back in 2005.
我不得不说, 这个想法发生在 2005 年。
People weren’t talking about criminal justice reform
当时人们还未开始像今天这样
the way they are now,
谈论刑事司法改革,
there wasn't a lot of conversation about bail reform,
也没有什么关于保释改革的话题。
and quite honestly, we spent two years knocking on people's door.
老实说,我们花了 2 年时间 敲了别人家的门,
Nobody answered.
没人回应。
Until one day, one man and his family, Jason Flom and his family,
直到一天,一个人和他的家人, 杰森 · 弗洛姆(Jason Flom)和他的家人
decided to take a chance on us and gave us a grant in 2007.
决定给我们一个机会, 在 2007 年赞助了我们一笔钱。
And we began to test the revolving bail fund model.
之后我们开始进行 循环保释基金的运作模型测试。
And to see what would happen.
想要看看什么会发生。
MZ: Can you clarify, though,
MZ:你能详细解释一下
like, why it is so important for someone not to be in jail
为什么在人们等待审讯的时候
while they await trial?
不用待在监狱里是那么重要吗?
You've explained this in the past and it really blew my mind,
你过去已经解释过了, 这真的让我很震惊,
because I had no idea what could happen in those days or weeks
因为我完全不知道 在那个人等待正式案件辩护的
before someone actually has to plead their case.
那几天或那几周, 有什么事情会发生。
RS: Sure. So, being held in jail even for a few days
RS:当然。即使只是在监狱几天
can change the trajectory of your life.
就能改变你的整个生活轨迹。
It is not only the place where you can be victimized, sexually,
监狱里你不仅可能受到性侵害,
you can be exposed to violence,
你可能被暴力威胁,
you'll be traumatized in all sorts of ways while you're in the jail,
当你在监狱的时候, 你将会遭受各种形式的创伤,
and that's even the first few days or a week
甚至在监狱的头几天或第一周
is when most jail deaths actually, whether they're suicides or homicides,
往往是是监狱死亡,不论自杀或凶杀,
actually happen.
最频发的时候。
But while you're sitting in jail,
当你被关在监狱里的时候,
and understand, folks sitting in jail pretrial
这里你要了解 坐在监狱预审阶段的人们
have not been convicted of a crime.
没有未被定罪。
They're there because they don't have enough money to pay bail.
他们蹲监狱的原因是 他们没钱付保释金。
And while that's happening, people's lives are falling apart outside.
当这种情况发生时, 人们在监狱外的生活分崩离析。
You're losing your job,
你会丢了工作,
you might be losing your home,
你可能会失去房子,
your children might be taken from you,
你的孩子可能被强制带走,
your immigration status might be jeopardized,
你的移民身份或许会不保,
you might get thrown out of school.
你也可能会被赶出学校。
So it's the damage to you that's happening in our local jails,
我们当地的监狱 就存在着如此的破坏性,
but it's also what's happening to you and your family
而且这种破坏性 也发生在你和你的家庭中,
and your community that you've been removed from
以及你因为等待审讯
while you're waiting for your trial,
而被逐出的社区中。
which, by the way, can take days, weeks and no exaggeration, can take years.
顺便说一句,等待期可能是 几天、几周,不夸张说甚至几年。
MZ: So you explained this sort of crazy limbo that people are in
MZ:您之前在 2018 年 TED 舞台上
from the TED stage in 2018,
解释了这些人所处的疯狂境地。
and I want to just play a quick clip from that talk that you gave,
我想播放您之前演讲的
which was incredibly moving.
一段简短且极其感人的视频片段。
Can we play that?
可以播放一下吗?
(Audio: Robin Steinberg TED2018) It's time to do something big.
(音频:罗宾 · 斯坦伯格 TED 2018) 是时候做些大事了。
It's time to do something bold.
是时候做些冒险之事了。
It's time to do something ... maybe audacious?
是时候做些……或许大胆之事?
(Laughter)
(笑声)
We want to take our proven revolving bail-fund model
我们想要使用 在布朗克斯区建立,
that we built in the Bronx
并应用于整个美国的
and spread it across America,
经过验证的循环保释基金模型
attacking the front-end of the legal system
在监禁开始前,
before incarceration begins.
就开始对前端法律系统进行攻击。
(Applause)
(掌声)
MZ: The energy in the room when you gave your talk was palpable,
MZ:在您演讲的时候, 场内的气氛能量是显而易见的,
and it ended up getting you quite a bit of funding
这让您从“大胆计划”
from the Audacious Project,
获得了一些资金支持,
which is TED's initiative to get some of these big ideas support
这是 TED 启动的项目—— 让这些大胆的想法获得支持,
to make them actually happen.
并让这些想法在现实落地。
Can you explain what has happened since you gave your talk?
您能说说在您的演讲后 都发生了什么吗?
RS: Sure.
RS:当然。
So, the Audacious grant allowed us
“大胆计划”的资金让我们
to take our proven concept and to scale it.
能采用经验证的概念并使其规模化。
And the idea is that we are scaling this model across the country.
我们想要将此基金模型 扩大至全国范围使用。
We're currently in 18 different sites.
我们现在有 18 个不同的试点。
And we are doing two things, right?
我们在做两件事,对吧?
The Bail Project is designed both,
“保释金项目”的设计目的
provide an immediate lifeline for folks that are stuck in jail cells
一是为仅仅因为贫困、 因为无法支付保释金
simply because of poverty,
而被困在监狱的人们
because they can't pay their bail,
提供及时的救命稻草,
and that's a response to the immediate direct emergency
这是我们对于在这个国家之中
and human rights crisis that we have in this country
围绕预审监禁导致的紧急情况 以及人权危机
around pretrial incarceration.
的及时回应。
But the second thing we're trying to do is we're testing a model
二是,我们正在尝试测试一个
that we call community release with voluntary supports.
我们称之为 由志愿支持的社区释放模型。
And what we're trying to prove is,
我们在尝试证明的是:
A: you don't need cash bail,
你不需要现金保释,
people will come back to court without cash bail.
在没有现金保释的情况下, 人们仍会回来庭审。
That myth has already been debunked and we know that.
这一问题已经被我们识破, 而且我们明确知道。
But we're also trying to model
我们也在尝试另一个模型——
you can actually release people back to their communities
通过一个有效的法律通知,
with effective court notifications.
你其实可以将人们释放回社区。
Make sure they're connected to services they might need.
确保他们 能获取可能所需的服务。
And people will come back to court while their cases are open,
之后在开庭的时候, 他们仍会回到法庭庭审,
and until those cases close.
直到结案。
It is in an effort to move policy forward,
这是推进政策的一个努力,
to ensure the systemic change happens,
来确保系统性改变的发生,
but here's our fear:
但我们也有担忧:
it's a race against time.
这是和时间在赛跑。
Because as this conversation picks up speed,
随着这场主题对话的加速,
and as bail reform begins to take hold,
以及保释金改革的开始,
some systems will move to new systems
有些系统将会被新系统替代,
that we fear will recreate some of the same harms, right,
而我们担心这些新系统会 再次造成同样的伤害,
that the initial bail system [created].
就如最初的保释金体系构成的伤害。
Those are racial disparities,
那些伤害是种族差异
economic inequality,
和经济条件不平等,
and we can actually recreate that if we don't get this right.
而且我们若没能处理好这些, 我们真的可以重构伤害。
And so we're in a race against time
所以我们在与时间赛跑,
to prove that you can do a community-based model
来证明我们提出的 一个基于社区的模型——
that doesn't require electronic monitoring
不要求电子监控、
or risk algorithms or jail cells or cash bail,
风险算法、监狱牢房, 或是现金保释,
but that you can simply release people to communities with supports.
你只要简单地将人们释放回社区 并给予支持——
And that will work.
就能成功。
MZ: I want to come back to that in a minute, but before we do that,
MZ:我想要马上回到这个话题, 但在这之前,
my background is as a tech journalist,
我的背景是一名科技记者,
and when you talk about scaling a program like this,
而当你谈到规模化这样的一个项目时,
I can only assume that you are facing completely different challenges
我只能假设 你面对的挑战很非同寻常。
than, say, a founder of an app or a platform or something like that.
比如和一个应用程序或是 一个平台创始人的挑战不同。
What are the challenges?
你面临的挑战是什么?
I mean, you're going to states with different laws,
我意思说,我要把这个项目 带到使用不同法律的各个州,
each city must be so completely different.
每座城市想必都极其不一样。
How do you do it?
你打算怎么做?
RS: So you know, scaling the revolving bail fund itself,
RS:把循环保释基金本身规模化
that's been the easy, elegant solution, right?
是一项简单且完美的解决方案,对吧?
That's the easy part, that's direct service part,
这是简单的部分, 直接提供服务就行,
we can scale that across the country.
因此我们能够规模化至全国范围。
The ground game,
各地的工作,
the teams that work as bail disruptors for the Bail Project
分布在全国不同地点的 为“保释金项目”而工作的
at different locations across the country,
保释团队,
they have to take our model
他们需要使用我们的模型,
and adapt it to the unique needs of each jurisdiction.
并将其调整以适应于 每个司法管辖区的独特需求。
And that's where it becomes complex,
这就是复杂的地方,
and it's very resource intensive,
而且这是一项非常资源密集的工作,
because criminal justice is incredibly local,
因为刑事司法极其具有地方性,
and so how each system operates is unique.
所以每个系统的运作都有其独特性。
And what the needs of our clients are
我们客户的需求
are incredibly different from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
因司法管辖区的不同而极其不同。
So you can be in Oklahoma
你可以在俄克拉何马州,
and what you know is that communities have been ravaged by the opioid crisis,
你知道的是 社区中阿片类药物危机肆虐,
and when we're bringing people home,
当我们把人们带回家,
we have to connect them to services that might address that.
我们必须将他们与 可能解决那些问题的服务联系起来。
When you're in Spokane,
当你在斯波坎市,
you're talking about an epidemic of homelessness.
大家都在谈论流浪汉的泛滥。
So when you're thinking about providing direct services and bringing people home,
所以当你在思考提供直接的服务 并把人们带回家的时候,
you have to be mindful of the fact that in that jurisdiction
你必须时刻记住 这一司法管辖区的现实,
that may be the biggest obstacle for people,
那些人面对的最大问题
is that they don't have shelter.
可能就是无家可归。
And so we need to adapt our model in every jurisdiction we go to
所以每个我们去到的司法管辖区, 我们都需要调整我们的模型
to address the needs of that community.
来解决那个社区的需求。
MZ: I could only assume that some of these communities
MZ:我只能假设有些社区
are not so happy that you're there.
对你的出现并不是很开心。
That must be a reality of it.
这一定是现实。
Do you have to win hearts and minds as well,
在你去到的有些社区中,
in some of these places?
你也需要赢取人心吗?
RS: So I think it depends on the definition of community.
RS:我认为这取决于对社区的定义。
So communities that have been targeted by our criminal legal system
那些世代被我们刑事法律制度
for generations,
针对的社区,
communities of color, low-income communities,
有色及低收入社区,
marginalized communities, women across the country,
边缘化的社区, 还有全国的女性,
they are more than happy to see us come,
他们非常庆幸我们的到来,
because we are just an immediate lifeline.
因为我们是一根及时的救命稻草。
Bail funds are a tool to get people out as an immediate lifeline,
保释基金是一种工具, 作为救命线,将人们从监狱中救出来,
it's not a long-term, systemic answer, right?
这不是一个长久的系统性答案,是吧?
But people are, of course,
但对于人们来说,当然,
they want to get out, go back to their families,
他们不想呆在监狱里, 他们想要回到家人身边,
their communities want them home.
他们的社区希望他们回家。
Has there been some opposition?
我们有遇到过反对吗?
Sure, of course.
当然有。
You know, when we go into a new site,
当我们去到一个新地方,
we do so carefully, we prospect it carefully,
我们会谨慎地进行, 小心地展望每一步,
we try to understand who are our partners on the ground
我们尝试理解 谁是在这项计划中能帮助我们的
that might help us in this initiative,
实地合作伙伴,
grassroots organizers, not-for-profit organizations,
比如基层组织者、非营利组织、
systems holders, sheriffs, right?
体系控制人以及郡县治安官,对吧?
Who is going to support us and who our opposition might be.
谁将会支持我们, 谁可能会是我们的反对者。
MZ: You also put some of the people that you bail out,
MZ:你也将你保释出来的人
you bring them back, right, as program officers.
带回了项目,对吧, 作为项目官员。
Is that part of the system
这是你们体系的一部分吗?
that you're trying to make a community around your efforts in some way?
换言之,您是否正在尝试 以某种方式围绕您的努力创建一个社区?
RS: So when we're hiring for local jurisdictions,
RS:当我们为 当地司法管辖区做招聘工作时,
we always hire locally.
我们通常招本地人。
If we open a site in Baton Rouge,
如果我们在巴吞鲁日开设工作点,
we hire people from Baton Rouge and are connected to the community.
我们雇佣在巴吞鲁日 有社区联系的当地人。
We try to prioritize people with lived experience
我们尝试优先考虑那些
in the criminal legal system,
在刑事法律制度中经验丰富的人,
or people who have been personally impacted by the system.
或是亲临体验过 刑事法律制度影响的人。
We think it's important, they understand the system best,
我们认为这很重要, 他们对系统有着最好的理解,
they have the best solutions because they're closest to the problem
他们能制定出最佳的解决方案, 因为他们处于问题的中心,
and they're credible messengers for the clients
而且他们是客户可信任的信使,
that we're going to be interviewing and providing bail for.
那些我们将要面谈并提供保释的客户。
MZ: So you touched on this,
MZ:您提到了这点,
criminal justice reform has become a hot topic,
现在刑事司法改革已成为热门话题,
you must be like, "Yay, finally people are talking about this thing
你肯定是像这样: “真棒,终于大家都在讨论
that I've been banging on about for decades."
我几十年来为之奋斗的事情了。”
Here in California actually, though, there has been a big change.
实际上在加利福尼亚, 已经发生了很大的变化。
Now it's complicated,
现在情况很复杂,
but my understanding is that they're getting rid of cash bail.
但我的理解是他们正在尝试 废除现金保释金制度。
Good thing, bad thing, not quite that simple to explain?
好处和坏处, 大概不是那么简单就能解释的?
RS: So everything about criminal justice reform,
RS:刑事司法改革的每一步,
and particularly bail reform,
尤其保释金制度改革,
is way more complex than it looks, right?
实际都比看起来要复杂得多,对吧?
So it's easy to have a hashtag that says "end cash bail."
创建一个话题标签“废除现金保释金” 很容易。
Totally right.
完全没错。
We have to eliminate unaffordable cash bail forever.
我们必须永远废除 承担不起的现金保释金。
We know money isn't what makes people come back,
我们知道让人回到庭审的不是金钱,
it's a myth, let's get rid of it.
这种流言,我们要摆脱掉。
But the question about what comes next is very, very complex,
但问题是在这之后, 下一步应该如何就非常非常复杂。
and California was a good example.
加利福尼亚是一个很好的例子。
There was a bill that worked its way through the political process,
有一项法案贯穿了整个政治进程,
called SB 10.
叫做 SB 10 。
It started out as what looked like a bill
它开始的时候看起来像是
that would actually move towards more decarceration.
一个会减少监禁的法案。
By the time it came out of the political process,
在这项法案出台实施后,
frankly it was a bill that almost nobody in the community would support,
坦白说,这是一个 几乎没有人会支持,
including the Bail Project.
包括“保释金项目”也不会支持的法案。
And it had gone through
在走整个流程的时候,
some changes in that process
这条法案出现了些变化,
that placed, you know, pretrial services in the hands of law enforcement,
将预审交到了执法机构手中,
that put people through risk algorithms,
通过风险算法分析人,
that sort of had a lot of the telltale signs of a system
这种体系实际上有很多明显的特征——
that was going to recreate the same racial inequity and economic inequalities
会重新形成同样的、 我们一直看到的
that we had always seen,
种族和经济不平等等问题,
and so, that bill actually moved through the process,
法案通过了,
and we thought that was the end.
而我们以为这就结束了。
But then the bail bond industry actually got 400,000 signatures
之后,保释金行业收集了四十万个签名
to put it on the ballot.
希望针对这条法案进行投票。
So in November, Californians will be voting
所以在 11 月, 加利福尼亚人将会对
on whether or not SB 10 should go forward or not.
是否该继续 SB 10 法案 进行投票。
MZ: So Californians in the audience, you will be voting on this.
MZ:观众席中的加利福尼亚人们, 你们马上就要对其进行投票了。
How should they vote?
他们该如何投票?
RS: So I'm not so bold as to say that.
RS:我没有那么大勇气说。
I may be audacious, but I'm not that audacious.
我可能大胆, 但没有那么大胆。
But what I will say is, educate yourselves.
不过我会说的是 请自我教育,
Understand what you're voting on.
去了解你投票的到底是什么,
Understand what it means to hold somebody in jail
了解把一个没有被定罪的人
who hasn't been convicted of a crime
只因为他们的贫穷
simply for their poverty, right?
而强制关在监狱里意味着什么。
And ask yourselves, do we want to have a criminal legal system
并且自问我们是否想要拥有一个 在人们被定罪前
that incarcerates people before they've been convicted of a crime?
就对他们进行监禁处理的 刑事法律制度?
Do we want to have a criminal legal system
我们真的想要一个
that continues to target communities of color
在全国范围内 持续针对有色和低收入社区的
and low-income communities across this country,
刑事法律制度吗?
do we want to continue the damage and the devastation
我们真的想要继续
that we have created through mass incarceration?
因大规模监禁 而带来的破坏和灾难吗?
So I'm not taking position on which way you should vote,
所以我不是在说你应该怎么投票,
but take that into account.
但是请把这些问题纳入考虑。
MZ: She told me backstage, "I'm not sure how I'm going to vote yet."
MZ:她在后台告诉我: “我还不确定我要怎么投票。”
I mean, it's that difficult, right?
这真的很困难,对吧?
RS: Well, it's a little more complicated.
RS:这就有一点复杂。
It's the form of SB 10 as it exists
SB 10 法案的存在形式
is not a bill that most of us would support, right?
并不是我们大多数人 都会支持的一条法案,对吧?
But eliminating cash bail is critical.
但是取消现金保释金至关重要。
MZ: Alright, I want you to forecast into the future.
MZ:好吧,我想要你展望未来。
What does an ideal system look like?
一个理想的系统 看起来应该是怎样的?
You have said that America is addicted to incarceration.
你说过美国 非常喜欢监禁这个概念。
Does there have to be a cultural shift around that
除了要进行你正在谈论的 这些该改变之外,
in addition to making some of the changes that you're talking about?
是否还要进行文化转变?
RS: So, you know, we have to reckon with what we've done.
RS:我们必须考虑我们已经做了什么。
If we don't face head-on
如果我们无法直面
how we've used our criminal legal system,
我们现今是如何使用 我们的刑事法律制度的,
and who we have targeted, and how we've defined crime,
我们针对了谁,我们如何定罪,
and how we punish people,
以及我们如何惩罚人们,
we're never going to move forward.
我们将永远不会进步。
So we are going to have to reckon with the harm that we've caused.
所以我们需要考虑到 我们已经造成的伤害,
And in so doing, we're going to have to shift our lens.
这么做后,我们将改变我们的视角。
And that's a real challenge for us, right?
这对我们是一项真正的挑战, 不是吗?
We're going to have to shift our lens
我们将必须改变我们的视角——
from a system that's about punishment and cruelty and isolation
从一个惩罚、残忍、隔离,
and cages
以及牢笼的系统,
to a lens of,
转变为
"What do you need, how can we support,
“你需要什么,我们可以怎么支持,
where have we failed,
我们哪些地方做的不好,
how can we make that better,
我们可以怎么改善,
how can we restore and how can we heal?"
我们可以如何恢复并治愈?”
And if we aren't willing to do that,
如果我们不愿意这么做,
criminal justice reform is going to be stalled,
刑事法律改革将会停滞不前,
or what comes next is going to be really problematic.
或即将到来的改革 将带来更多问题。
It is a fundamental shift in the way that we see
这是我们如何看待刑事司法制度方式的
our criminal justice system.
根本转变。
And make no mistake about it,
而且毫无疑问,
the context of our criminal legal system
我们刑事法律的制度背景
is we have turned our back on social problems, right?
已经忽视了那些社会问题,对吧?
So we have turned our backs on homelessness
我们忽视了了流浪汉、
and dire poverty and structural racism
可怕的贫穷、结构性种族主义、
and mental health challenges
心理健康的挑战、
and addiction
各类成瘾,
and even immigration status.
以及甚至移民问题。
And instead, we have used our jails and our criminal legal system, right,
相反,我们一直惯用 我们的监狱和刑事法律制度
to answer those problems.
来解决这些问题。
And that has to change.
而这需要改变。
MZ: It's not the answer.
MZ:这不是我们的答案。
RS: We have done damage to millions of people
RS:我们已经给上百万的人 造成了伤害,
and in so doing, we have harmed their families
我们也因此伤害了他们的家庭,
and we have harmed their communities,
他们的社区。
and we need to reckon with that.
我们需要认识到所有的这些破坏。
MZ: So I want to ask you finally --
MZ:所以最后我想要问您——
(Applause)
(掌声)
You've got some of the smartest women in the world here,
在您周围,
surrounding you.
有着世界上最聪慧的女性。
They're energized,
她们充满活力,
they want to know what to do with that energy
她们想要知道 在回到她们的社区后,
when they go back to their communities.
可以如何利用她们的能量。
And actually I know you took some of them to see a local jail yesterday, right?
实际上,我知道你昨天 带着她们一些人去了当地的监狱,对吧?
RS: I did.
RS:没错。
MZ: Can you tell us about that?
MZ:你可以和我们说说吗?
RS: So, here's what we need to understand.
RS:我们需要了解这一点。
This problem is all of our problems.
这个问题是我们所有的问题。
Each and every one of us is implicated
我们每个人都受到
in what our criminal legal system looks like.
刑事法律制度的影响。
There is no escaping that.
没人能逃脱。
It reflects each of us.
这体现了我们每个人。
Every time a prosecutor gets up and says,
检察官每次起身说:
"The people of the state of California" or "New York" or "Idaho,"
“加利福尼亚州的人,或纽约州, 或是爱达荷州的的人民,”
they are speaking in your names.
他们在以你的名义说话。
So we have to take some ownership over this.
所以我们对此必须 拥有一些所有权。
And we really have to own the fact that this has to change
我们真的需要接受一个现实 即这需要改变,
and this implicates every one of us.
而且它牵连着我们每个人。
So what you need to do, is as I said,
所以你需要做的,宛如我说,
you need to get educated, you also need to get proximate to this.
你需要自我教育, 你也需要了解这个话题。
And by getting proximate,
为了熟悉了解这个话题,
I mean you need to go and see how our criminal legal system operates.
你需要亲眼目睹 我们的刑事法律制度是如何运行的。
That may mean go to a local criminal courthouse,
这可能意味着去到 当地的刑事法庭,
sit in the back of a courtroom,
坐在法庭后方,
and I promise you will never be the same,
之后我保证你会变得不一样,
it's what made me become a public defender all those years ago.
这也是在多年前我选择 成为公设辩护律师的原因之一。
And yesterday, I took a bunch of people from the TED conference
昨天,我带了一些 TED 大会的人
to the local jail here.
去到了这里的当地监狱。
I have been coming in and out of jails for 38 years.
我进出监狱已经有 38 年了。
And I have never not been shocked,
我从来没有一次不被震惊,
and yesterday was no exception.
昨天也不列外。
I was shocked, I was horrified.
我很震惊,我很恐惧。
The conditions were dehumanizing and degrading and horrifying --
监狱的条件并不人性化, 侮辱人格且令人恐惧,
and incomprehensible
而且如果你不亲眼所见,
if you don't actually see it with your eyes.
会很难理解。
It was shocking.
真的非常令人震惊。
And I saw it on the faces of the people that I was with.
我也能从和我一同前往的人的 面部表情上看出震惊。
So we have to know that's what we're doing in the name of justice in this country
所以我们必须知道我们在以 这个国家的正义之名做些什么,
and stand up against it.
并且站起来反抗它。
But the only way you're going to do that
但你这么做的唯一途径就是
is if you fight back the narrative of fear that enables that to happen.
你反击允许这些发生的 恐怖叙事。
And what do I mean by that?
这是什么意思?
I promise you, every single time you get into a conversation
我保证,每一次你 参与一个关于保释金或
about bail reform or criminal justice reform,
刑事法律制度改革的对话,
here's what happens:
这会发生:
everybody starts talking about the scary case.
每个人开始讲恐怖的案件。
"But what about the guy who did X?"
“但是那个做了某事的人怎么样了?”
So here's what I'm here -- to rest --
所以这里就是我讲的—— 暂停一下——
Just have you rest a little bit and sit with this, right?
你就在这时候暂停一会儿, 仔细想一下,好吗?
Despite the fact that we have used our criminal legal system
尽管事实是 我们使用刑事法律制度
and destroyed millions of people,
摧毁了上百万人,
that we have harmed people,
我们伤害了人,
exposed them to trauma and violence,
将他们置于创伤与暴力的处境,
day after day after day,
日复一日,
the truth is, when people come home,
真相是,当人们回家,
bad things happen rarely.
坏事很少发生。
It is the exception, not the rule.
这是例外,不是规则。
It is the extraordinary, not the normal.
这不同寻常,而非正常。
But if you don't know that,
但如果你不知道这一点,
if you don't hold on to that,
如果你没有坚持,
if you can't support that with data, which we can,
如果你无法用数据来支持 这个故事,而我们可以,
you will be drawn into the narrative of fear
你将会陷入这恐惧叙事中,
that will lead us to justify
这将成为我们对自身恐惧的 正当辩解——
the kinds of horrors we have inflicted
那种恐惧,我们加以
upon communities of color and low-income communities
有色社区、低收入社区之上,
and people that become ensnared in our criminal legal system
以及被我们的刑事法律制度
for far too long.
所困扰太久的人之上的恐惧。
So get educated --
所以请自我教育——
(Applause)
(掌声)
Get educated, proximate, stay vigilant,
自我教育,开始了解, 保持警惕,
do not be drawn into the narratives of fear,
不要陷入引发恐惧的叙事模式中,
which are wildly and grossly racialized anyway.
那些都是极其种族歧视的说法。
Check it when you hear it,
当你听到一个故事时,核查一下;
question it when somebody says it to you,
当有人和你讲这么一个故事时, 质疑一下,
ask for the data, "Why do you say that," right?
询问一下数据来源: “你为什么这么说,”对吧?
And don't get drawn into that.
不要陷入那些故事中。
And if you do,
如果你能做到,
I'm actually convinced
我实际上深信
that we're at a moment where we will build a better criminal legal system.
我们此刻正在建立一个更好的 刑事法律制度。
If you get proximate to this
如果你能加以了解,
and you actually begin to engage in it,
并且真正参与到其中,
we will not only be a better country,
我们将不仅能成为 一个更好的国家,
each of us will be better people.
每个人都能变得更好。
And that is a worthy goal.
而这是一个非常有价值的目标。
MZ: It's a very worthy goal.
MZ:这确实是一个非常有价值的目标。
(Applause)
(掌声)
I mean, did I hit the jackpot with my first interview, or what?
我是在第一个采访中 中了头奖吗,还是啥的?
She is badass.
她真的很厉害。
Robin Steinberg, the Bail Project, thank you so much.
罗宾 · 斯坦伯格,“保释金项目”, 非常感谢您的到来。
RS: Thanks.
RS:谢谢。
MZ: I'm Manoush Zomorodi,
MZ:我是马努什 · 佐莫罗迪,
I'm the new host of the TED Radio Hour, and I'll see you in the spring.
我是 TED Radio Hour 的新主持人, 春天与你们相见。
(Applause)
(掌声)